WikiLeaks' First Scalp -- Tunisia

[Elok]

Come to think of it, have we confirmed that the Tunisian uprising was caused or inspired by Wikileaks in any way? Or is this just one of those cases of rocks keeping tigers away?

[Al B. Sure!]

Come to think of it, have we confirmed that the Tunisian uprising was caused or inspired by Wikileaks in any way? Or is this just one of those cases of rocks keeping tigers away?

No it was building up for a while. Some dude setting himself on fire in December galvanized people.

[Heraclitus]

Don't you claim to be a Christian? What happened to that whole Golden Rule business? Treat other people they way you want to be treated?

Its slightly toung in cheek.

I personally do care since my conversion (which is still ongoing), however I don't quite see why one should expect states to behave selflessly.

Also, who am I to decide what is best for them? America spreading democracy is as silly a concept as the Soviet Union struggling to spread socialism, its a waste, a pointless and expensive never ending secular missionary effort.

[Heraclitus]

**** yes we can. Democracy is an instrumental good - it's good because it generally leads to good outcomes. When it leads to bad outcomes (Hitler, the US Senate) it should be avoided.

+1

It always pisses me off when people get confused and start valuing democracy in itself. Its just such a banal and arbitrary thing to promote from proxy to terminal because of good feelings and fuzzy thinking.

[Al B. Sure!]

Hitler was not democratically elected. Check your facts before you jump on the bandwagon.

For shame...

First you were wrong about Yemeni President Saleh.

Now, you spew this nonsense. Check the results of the German Federal Election of 1933.

The Nazi Party won a significant plurality of votes and obtained 288 seats in the parliament. The Nazis and their party leader, Hitler, were voted into power.

[giblets]

Its slightly toung in cheek.

I personally do care since my conversion (which is still ongoing), however I don't quite see why one should expect states to behave selflessly.

Also, who am I to decide what is best for them? America spreading democracy is as silly a concept as the Soviet Union struggling to spread socialism, its a waste, a pointless and expensive never ending secular missionary effort.

Giving foreign dictators less support would be nice, though. There's no reason why America should make it harder for democracy...

[giblets]

For shame...

First you were wrong about Yemeni President Saleh.

Now, you spew this nonsense. Check the results of the German Federal Election of 1933.

The Nazi Party won a significant plurality of votes and obtained 288 seats in the parliament. The Nazis and their party leader, Hitler, were voted into power.

I think he was saying that since the Nazis never got a majority of the vote, they had to use undemocratic means to eliminate opposition...

[Al B. Sure!]

I think he was saying that since the Nazis never got a majority of the vote, they had to use undemocratic means to eliminate opposition...

Undemocratic means? They legally obtained dictatorial powers for Hitler through the German legislature:

The Enabling Act (German: Ermächtigungsgesetz) was passed by Germany's Reichstag and signed by President Paul von Hindenburg on 24 March 1933. It was the second major step, after the Reichstag Fire Decree, through which Chancellor Adolf Hitler legally obtained plenary powers and established his dictatorship. It received its name from its legal status as an enabling act granting the Cabinet the authority to enact laws without the participation of the Reichstag. The act stated that it was to last for four years unless renewed by the Reichstag, which occurred twice.

[giblets]

Wow, Germans are kind of stupid

[BeBMan]

Wow, Germans are kind of stupid

No, Speer's an idiot. The Ermächtigungsgesetz came *after* Hitler took power in January 33. It came *after* massive persecution against political opposition, esp. since the burning of the Reichstag. At this point all the commie MEPs had already lost their mandates, some of them were already (and illegally) jailed, same goes for a small part of the Social Democrats (SPD). The SPD was formally still legal, and the only party which voted against it, but under massive terror from SA gangs.

Noone in his right mind would declare this 'democratic'. It's a result of massive pressure, open violence and persecution.

[germanos]

What I am talking about? Listen to yourself dude:

It's all the pro-American dictators that are falling

President Saleh is hardly anti-American.

In what world are you living in where a 'hardly anti-american'='pro-american'?

And giving money does not a friend make. I give the beggar on the corner money, but I'm not counting on him returning my lost wallet.

[Elok]

Especially if you're only giving him money so he'll beat up another beggar who's been threatening you.

...okay, that analogy's far from perfect, but we're giving Yemen military aid because the country's a terrorist hotbed at present, IIRC. And we don't really care for terrorism. Certainly not the Islamic kind.

[germanos]

For shame...

Now, you spew this nonsense. Check the results of the German Federal Election of 1933.

The Nazi Party won a significant plurality of votes and obtained 288 seats in the parliament. The Nazis and their party leader, Hitler, were voted into power.

What's a significant plurality? Or an unsignificant one for that matter.


See gribbler and BeBro for answers on why you are wrong.

[germanos]

Undemocratic means? They legally obtained dictatorial powers for Hitler through the German legislature:

dictatorial powers=democratic means?

I'm through debating with you

[Aeson]

Oh noes! HITLER! I heard some poeple are allergic to water too! We shouldn't let people without water have water because they might turn out to be allergic to it or use it on those who are! :idiotoverlordwannabees: