US Gun Laws

[Hauldren Collider]

Difference being gun control doesn't stop those people from getting guns anyway. The data suggests no correlation between gun control and the availability of guns to criminals.

[Felch]

There's a direct causal link between arming yourself, and being able to shoot people who invade your home.

[The Mad Monk]

For every one of those you can find many more examples of an intruder using a gun.

That's because the media prefers bad news. It sells more eyeballs.

[Aeson]

No doubt. I mean when is the last time the news ran a story about a kid who didn't accidentally shoot their sibling while playing with a gun?

[Asher]

Difference being gun control doesn't stop those people from getting guns anyway. The data suggests no correlation between gun control and the availability of guns to criminals.

You honestly think that?

Why do you think it's so hard for UK criminals to get ahold of guns, HC? Of course, it couldn't possibly be gun control.

[The Mad Monk]

Is that still true?

[Asher]

Is what still true? That it's hard to get guns in the UK? Yes.

Look at:
1) Total murders by firearm per capita
2) Percentage of murders where guns are used

Not even in the same league.

[Burning_Monkey]

Is what still true? That it's hard to get guns in the UK? Yes.

Look at:
1) Total murders by firearm per capita
2) Percentage of murders where guns are used

Not even in the same league.

I have always had problems with finding really good data on a couple of things related to this.

How much did stabbings leap up after the ban?
How much did the actual total murder rate go down after the ban?
How much change vs other countries actually happened?

I am all for proper enforcement of gun control. I do not think that any new laws are needed, just efficient enforcement of all the previous laws.

[The Mad Monk]

Firearms: cheap, easy to get and on a street near you

From drug dealing to settling playground squabbles, firearms offences are rising

The Guardian,

Friday 29 August 2008

The gun shown here, a Webley, is up for sale in London for £150, one of hundreds of such weapons that are easily and cheaply available on the streets of the UK's big cities, a Guardian investigation can reveal.

The variety of weapons on offer in Britain is extensive and includes machine guns and shotguns, as well as pistols and converted replicas. A source close to the trade in illegal weapons contacted by the Guardian listed a menu of firearms that are available on the streets of the capital.

"You can get a clean [unused] 9mm automatic for £1,500, a Glock for a couple of grand and you can even make an order for a couple of MAC-10s," he said. "Or you can get a little sawn-off for £150. They're easy enough to get hold of. You'll find one in any poverty area, every estate in London, and it's even easier in Manchester, where there are areas where the police don't go.

"People who use shotguns tend to be lower down the pecking order. There is less use of sawn-off or full length shotguns, and if a criminal wants street cred, he wants a self-loading pistol, a MAC-10 or an Uzi submachine gun."

This week a man who ran a "factory" for converting replica weapons into working guns was jailed for life. Police believe the products of Grant Wilkinson's workshops were used in more than 50 shootings, including eight murders. His speciality was turning legally purchased MAC-10s into weapons that could fire live rounds, an increasingly common practice.

According to David Dyson, a leading firearms consultant, it is possible to learn through the internet how to make a firearm, given a degree of skill, and converted deactivated weapons also feature in shootings.

But it is the arrival of eastern European weapons that, alongside a homegrown industry in converting them, has contributed to the firearms glut. "There has been an influx from eastern Europe and particularly from Poland, and there are also a lot coming in from people who have served in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the source. "In Liverpool docks, you can put in an order for 10 guns and some grenades and they'll say OK and two weeks later, they will be there - and they are straight goers."

According to Dyson, the latest "weapon of choice" is a Russian 8mm Baikal self-defence pistol, originally used for firing CS gas. "They are legally sold in Germany and won't fire a bullet but they can be converted by removing the partially blocked barrel, and replacing it with a rifled barrel," he said. "After other small alterations, it can then fire 9mm bulleted ammunition. The replacement barrel is longer than the original, and is threaded so that it will accept a silencer, which is commonly sold as part of the package.

"There are hundreds of these floating around and hundreds have been seized," he said. "They look the part as they are based on the Russian military Makarov pistol. If you are a 20-year-old drug dealer and you want a gun, that is what you will get and it will cost about £1,000 to £1,500."

"The trends in firearms are driven by the suppliers," said Dyson. "About two years ago, a supplier brought back hundreds of German-made revolvers, blank-firing pistols which can be bought legally in Germany. They were then converted and new cylinders made. They could then be sold for £700 to £800 when the supplier would have bought them for €60 and spent about £30 on converting them."

Home Office data shows that gun crime is up since last year, despite the recent doubling of sentences for possessing or supplying firearms. There were 9,803 firearms offences in England and Wales in the year to March 2008 with most in London, Manchester and the West Midlands.

Most buyers are involved with drug dealing, the source said. Some are used to rob other dealers in crimes that go unreported, others are used as protection while a deal is under way. "Someone will have a tool and there is always one guy in a posse willing to use it. They will have one guy who doesn't give a ****.

"Everyone wants to be a gangster now, mainly the kids. You have five or six in a little crew and one of them will be carrying. They want handguns - shotguns are too big and bulky. The sawn-off doesn't look so good but use a machine gun and you get known as a heavy guy. They have them just to be a chap on the street, to pose. Some of them walk around all day with a .38. It's 16-year-olds at it and it's getting like America, silly as it sounds."

More here.

You seem to be missing the whole picture.

[Asher]

Congratulations for reading The Guardian. You are a braver man than I am.

The stats speak for themselves, certainly far more than a loony lefty paper's fearmongering.

"There are hundreds of these floating around and hundreds have been seized," he said.

HUNDREDS OF THEM!!!!

There were 9,803 firearms offences in England and Wales in the year to March 2008 with most in London, Manchester and the West Midlands.

Now look at the numbers in the US.

[Asher]

% of homicides with firearms:

US: 65%
UK: 7%

Firearm homicides per 100,000:

US: 2.97
UK: 0.12

Non-firearm homicides per 100,000:

US: 1.58
UK: 1.49

Try to blame that on the blacks and mexicans.

[Burning_Monkey]

Congratulations for reading The Guardian. You are a braver man than I am.

The stats speak for themselves, certainly far more than a loony lefty paper's fearmongering.


HUNDREDS OF THEM!!!!



Now look at the numbers in the US.

What is the difference in population density?
Crime rates?
Other socioeconomic factors?

[Asher]

Canada falls between the US and the UK when it comes to gun control. Shockingly...so do these numbers.

% of homicides with firearms:

US: 65%
Canada: 34%
UK: 7%

Firearm homicides per 100,000:

US: 2.97
Canada: 0.54
UK: 0.12

Non-firearm homicides per 100,000:

US: 1.58
Canada: 1.05
UK: 1.49

[Asher]

What is the difference in population density?
Crime rates?
Other socioeconomic factors?

So you are trying to blame the % of homicides using guns on the dirty mexicans, to be clear.

Look at those numbers. 65% of all US homicides with firearms vs 7%.

You want to blame that on population density, crime rates, and socioeconomic factors?

People are honestly asserting if there was no gun control the UK's firearm homicide rate would not increase?

[Burning_Monkey]

I never once said anything racist and I resent you even implying it.