Job thread XXMCIV

[Pekka]

Hello once again my friends,

it seems that I got myself into the final round this time. (If you ask me, I think I'm the only one in this round, or there is someone else, 1 person maximum).

I wrote about ti earlier, they were impressed with my set of skills, but kept asking me "why us? Why would you want to be here - we don't understand why you would be motivated to work in this particular place". I gave them lots of answers - all true and honest. And I was and am motivated to work for them.

So they felt they can't afford me but of course I lowered my salary so they can, because I want the job and I knew their limit beforehand and to me it seemed acceptable and good.

So now... they want a second round. It was a short message, "bring your school and work certificates". Sometimes this is a formality. They need to archive them. But sometimes they ask things. My problem is, if they ask if they can call my former boss at University, the guy who illegally fired me, who I would like to smash into bits, who I've had a million conflicts with... he will undoubtedly smash me in that phone call.

Anyone else, except that one former boss... they can call anyone, just not him. How do I resolve this problem? I fully anticipate them to actually ask me if they can call him, because I was there for 3 years and they were interested in my research work.

This is the only thing that can kill me at this point. The job is mine otherwise.

[N35t0r]

Hmm, I have no experience with this, but maybe, if they want to call him, briefly explain the situation and mention they can call someone else as well?

[rah]

Don't offer his name as a contact. If they specifically ask, briefly explain what happened in a professional manner (even if you just say that he was the reason you left) and then offer alternative references. This is not that uncommon.

[Pekka]

Don't offer his name as a contact. If they specifically ask, briefly explain what happened in a professional manner (even if you just say that he was the reason you left) and then offer alternative references. This is not that uncommon.

I figured that the BEST POLICY is always telling the truth. It is the way that you tell it that makes the difference and by this I don't mean stretching the truth aka lying.

I'm just nervous because the job is very likely mine. As in I know I'm the only one in the "second round". Not only that but it's next week and should it go even acceptably, my financial troubles are gone. They'd still let me work for my company X amount of days per month etc etc. It's also a EU path, if one wants that some day.

So yeah, I'll just be honest and not make it the topic but rather a passing subject. I've had these job threads before but I've missed last two shots and I need to make this third one count.

[rah]

Yes, the way you tell it

Instead of "the guy was a real dick" use 'he often acted unprofessionally".

[Zoetstofzoetje]

Don't make him a reference. Don't tell them that you have a bad relationship with them. If he acted unprofessionally, some of that shines back onto you. It takes two to tango, after all. Instead, offer an explanation that you don't want your current employer to know that you're applying for jobs elsewhere.

[Zoetstofzoetje]

By the way, it is well known that professors tend to dick around their research assistants.

[Pekka]

By the way, it is well known that professors tend to dick around their research assistants.

No no, I was a paid doctorate student and an assistant/project researcher. He treated me like a research assistant though. I mean, he treated everyone like inferior beings. It's not that even, he was straight ass, abusive and broke the law numerous times. He made promises he never kept, mostly dealing with raises and salary, he demanded OT on his own projects that had nothing to do with your job.. this is small potatoes, when I told him that I have brain cancer, something I don't have to do, the next day he fired me and called me a liar. Not kidding. And that I always was a problem, even though he never complained about my action and I was the one who published most papers in our group at the moment. But yeah, I got tired of his BS and called him up for it couple of times. I mean he went beyond professional and beyond what is considered normal behavior into sociopath zone. You know, to the sociopath zone where you kick people publicly, because you enjoy the fact taht everyone is ashamed of the situation but no one raises their finger or says anything because they're afraid to be next. I was too, until he called me liar with the cancer thing. That was it.

I told the dean, who said he has received numerosu complaints about him adn that his actions are known and unfortunate but that "he is the future is that faculty". And then he suggested I should apply for a grant because I would probably get it (because he was the one deciding who gets them). I guess that was blood money. I accepted it. Got the grant and left the place. (I was de facto fired for refusing to show doctor's papers to my boss so he coudl see evidence that I wasn't a liar. This is what he directly said. But he can't fire me for that reason so we broke a deal with the dean that I get a grant and he doesn't get a warning which would effectively block him from future advancements in the faculty).

So yeah, we have some history. If you ask me, I'd love to kick his ass. I hate his horse face. He doesn't understand power. You have to be able to protect your ass when the batteries die as well, or the magical shield of "i'm your boss" fades away.

Ohh see! Here I go again... it was just a traumatic 2-3 years in my life. Really just a cluster of ****. I kept bending and bending and taking it and taking it, thinking it will be worth it at the end. Guess what, it never was. With *******sl ike that, they NEVER pay you back, you think they will remember all the things you did, but **** it, it's not why they do it. NORMAL people would remember you warmly for doing all kinds of services, but some people figure it's power and they get a kick out of it. When you say NO even a single time, they will totally flip and turn against you, so it's on the way anyway, no reason to take it up the butt any longer than necessary, and it's never necessary.

I'm not going to talk **** about him if it should come up. I'll get the job, and what happened between me and him is between us. Maybe there is a day when we will go for the final battle, but until then, I'm just going to be more successful than him and flip him off when the chance comes, as proof that what goes around comes around.

[Zoetstofzoetje]

Ah, the semi-joys of a PhD. Forget about the dickhead-douchebag-moron. There's plenty of those all around, and you'll meet more of them. You can piss on his grave after he dies, that's pretty much all the satisfaction you're going to get.

You need to understand that a lot of professors were bullied all their life, come into a position of power (through whatever method), and suddenly think they can rule supreme. Faculties are political hornets' nests. The stakes are low so the grinding is high. The system reproduces itself.

Welcome to industry. You're going to like it.

[DanS]

I suggest that you take the high road and be very, very brief with what you say. "He was the reason that I left" seems like a short, sweet way to communicate all of the relevant information.

[Provost Harrison]

I'm sorry, but those Roman numerals are invalid. Can you please correct?

But as rah says, this kind of conflict is not that uncommon. I've had a similar conflict only a few months ago, and again back in 2003...and I certainly wouldn't use them as a reference...but from everyone else I have a glowing reputation and I am well liked and respected. It happens...it's par for the course as a consultant where you work with many different people and places...you're going to get one you're incompatible with now and again...

[Pekka]

I suggest that you take the high road and be very, very brief with what you say. "He was the reason that I left" seems like a short, sweet way to communicate all of the relevant information.

I will.

I must admit that I'm still bitter about the past and it would only show in my behavior. If I was recruiting someone into that position, and I wanted that particular person, I would already see some developments we'd together then make... the last thing I want to see is someone going on some weird rant and never ending stories.

I think the true measure of who the bigger person is, is who will forget it first and let it go because nothing good can come out of it. But it's hard...High road it is.

Maybe they won't even ask for it. Most likely they just want all the certificates for the... archiving purposes, and since I didn't lie in my application, and am the only one left and profiled in the first round, I think it's just a matter of talking about few details, discussing that this is what we all want, and for me to sign the permission slip for the background check, that is fairly intrusive for this particular gig.

About professors, yeah... it's amazing how there can be total failures as humans and leaders. In the private sector, such incompetence would not be tolerated. Surely private sector sees its fair share of poor leadership and human monsters, but it is so common in academia that it is kind of amazing. Many, in academia, do the _exact_ opposite as the values of the institution holds its roots to be: it's full of secrets and power plays instead of sharing information, knowledge and skills. The single reason I got most of my work done so fast was because I got along with everyone (even with my former boss - up to a point). The simplest thing is just to ask for it. If you need help, the place is literally filled with experts on any issue, some of them who are top experts in the world, you get the latest information that human race knows in its pinnacle of research. How cool is that? It's really cool, and if you just ask for it and be nice, most of them help you because they are flattered that someone is interested in their work. Go to their dungeon, knock on the door, be polite and pitch.

But this is not the reality for most. There's enemies, and you make enemies just by talking to someone who is an enemy of someone else. Now you're taking sides. And all along you thought it was about science and doing the research, let alone that research helping someone or the society, or the sponsors. Forget that. It's about your own personal ranking, the next year's budget, it's about who supports who, whose faculty gets higher in domestic rankings and therefore more money and dean's and principal's attention etc... it's all about fighting and whoring.

There are, of course, positive examples as well, and some of the very best professors in the world are also very down to earth people and surprisingly friendly and open. Well most of them are Americans so they have better social skills by default.

[Pekka]

PH, yeah, exactly. I could say that "ask anyone I've ever worked with except THAT guy". Then again that would be... I don't know, I just feel like I shouldn't worry about some old douche in my past and become even more obsessive.

[Provost Harrison]

You shouldn't worry about him at all...and the longer your career history is, the more of these types of situation you are going to accrue...it's a fact of life. I know I have a fairly distinct style to the way I do things which is going to divide opinion (by far towards the positive mind you).

Some you win, and some you lose...that's how it goes.

[DaShi]

For me, my first boss in the US after college was terrible and I couldn't wait to leave. After that, I've had a long streak of pretty good bosses.