Job thread XXMCIV

[Pekka]

I guess so.

I've been a boss for quite a large group of people and I know it's difficult. But it's easy to be humane and normal. My style is 1) have their back and make sure you follow this rule. They will know it and trust you because of it. 2) Now that you have their back, they have yours and will do the things you ask them to do. This is pretty rough and not yet good management skills but I've felt that all the good bosses I've had (everyone else) have always had my back in the chain of command, and they've tried to lead by example. You just want to follow these people. I've been lucky to have few outstanding bosses, just fun to be around with, but yet you respect them and they have authority over you. Trust is key.

Unlike these sociopaths, you live in a world where everyone is out to get them, including their loyal inferiors like me. They talk **** about everyone and to everyone.

PH, I must say though, that I'm not the easiest employee anymore. I used to be easy but I guess these days I think that I offer my work in trade for money and that it's not such 1-way street anymore, where I'm just happy to be accepted. I also ask questions. It is sometimes difficult for me to accept things unless they are argued well. I'm also quite often straightforward with my opinions and sometimes set them out to be facts, for example, I keep talking to managers and directors how they are responsible for things such as data leakages, if they haven't got any security policies that have been communicated to the employees. And sometimes some people don't like to hear that, I'm trying to learn the way of more subtle ways, I'm trying to say it in a positive manner, sort of "an opportunity lies here" rather than "you are not due diligent, and probably break the law as it is". This is to say that if someone had a problem with my face or personality, they might dislike me a lot because they'd then have to hear me out as well. But I've had this problem with ONLY one former boss, and that was in the university anyway.

[Provost Harrison]

Well that is confident. Once you get to our ages and professional, you realise that most of the time you are the only one who knows what you are doing and need to be quite clear about what needs doing. As an expert in the area I work in, I get to advise people who normally wouldn't listen to anyone else around you. Fortunately, I am always right

[Pekka]

So... it's good to know they offered me the job. Now here comes the surprise part: I turned it down. I went there with a perfect idea of accepting should everything go well or make an offer to give them a quote from the company.

I was asked few questions, during which I concluded that the would be boss doesn't know a whole lot about his own job. Not that he would be incompetent, I'm sure he is competent. But let's just say that I was not impressed after all. That's OK, but he asked me questions I felt were weird. He asked me if I'm on any medication. Not as in "are you mentally ill?", but do you take drugs for any condition. I feel that's a sensitive question and since I do take for me epilepsy, I felt like F*** this job. Especially when they revealed they really need help and that the line is short because the caliber they need is rarely available in the job market. Which is true.

Then he asked me few other similar questions that I felt were sensitive. Didn't like it. The point is, if these are the questiosn I'm asked BEFORE my first day, what's going to be my actual days when the honeymoon is over? Also, I was made clear that even though I was first promised that I can work for my own company simultaneously, that this was actually a problem. Well, it is a problem for sure because I happen to love my company, so maybe you should take some medication if you think I'll give it up for ******* questions.

What a weird day. I just turned down a nice salary and a steady job and instead continue on my rocky path of entrepreneurship. I figure I rather not have any money except for rent and food, work my ass off, have the walls fall on me every other day but at least do it on my own terms and provide quality service I can stand for and say this is great stuff we do and we definitely do what it takes to make people happy. If I wanted someone good to work for our company, which I always do, I would not ask them if they have to take medication. If I had doubts, I could ask if they applicant thinks they can do the job (as in are you healthy enough to do this job). But that's it, and that's at most.

How can I accept that kind of crap and be all about protecting people's right to privacy?

[Pekka]

I can't believe I just turned down a job that would look excellent in my resume, that would instantly solve all my financial problems.

But it didn't feel right. Yaay, I'm an idiot!

edit: Karma better exist. It should appear pretty damn soon in form of new customers....

[DaShi]

If this is a government job, they may be required to ask you those questions.

[Provost Harrison]

Good for you Pekka, the important thing is that you have options You aren't compelled to take the job just because it is there (this is a situation I have been in before in my earlier days)

Well I am also casually back on the job hunt. I have just been on a big project for nearly two years, seeing the world. But this project is over and for my company there aren't many projects on the go which causes me a problem because the German office free consultants will be the first to be assigned (I am UK office, which is very small and struggling really badly) which means although I will be paid regardless (unless the close the UK office, which is highly likely, but I will still receive redundancy and 3 months notice). But I just can't be doing with being sat around for months on end doing nothing but a bit of light reading...sounds great, and so far it has given me a chance to catch up on my gym (well I am actually still on holiday since Christmas, I'm not slacking ) but it will drive me insane after a while.

So the job hunt for me has started. I know I can command a bit more money than I am on, which isn't bad. Fortunately my boss isn't one for bullsh*t and is aware of the situation and what I am doing, he is doing similar himself. But like you, I am not panic-stricken or anything, I can take my time, see if there is anything I like. And I also have the option of going freelance too...the rates are alright, not what they once were, but will still give me more money than I can spend - good for saving

[rah]

IN some countries it's illegal to ask that question. It has to be phrased more like Pekka thought, in terms of impact on ability to do the job. It's like handicaps in the US, you can't directly ask about a handicap but you can ask about their ability to do the job. But yes, I'm not familiar with the regulations there so it could be.
While I might have been able to ignore that insult, their flipping on that it was no longer ok for you to work your other job would have been an instant deal breaker and I would have made sure they understood it, to keep the door open on any further negotiations in case they really wanted you.

You probably did the right thing so don't beat yourself up over it. But you must remember to wear those "I have a family to look after" glasses when looking at things.

[Pekka]

IN some countries it's illegal to ask that question. It has to be phrased more like Pekka thought, in terms of impact on ability to do the job. It's like handicaps in the US, you can't directly ask about a handicap but you can ask about their ability to do the job. But yes, I'm not familiar with the regulations there so it could be.
While I might have been able to ignore that insult, their flipping on that it was no longer ok for you to work your other job would have been an instant deal breaker and I would have made sure they understood it, to keep the door open on any further negotiations in case they really wanted you.

You probably did the right thing so don't beat yourself up over it. But you must remember to wear those "I have a family to look after" glasses when looking at things.

The flip flop thing was the one that really did it. I could also have looked past the weird question(s).

In here it is indeed illegal (or forbidden) to ask such questions. I have to consider that the person who asked it is very well aware of this policy so he intentionally broke it. I figure it was sample of what might come in the future. But it's the flipping thing that is the real factor here. I feel weird, I've never turned down a job, it would have been the best monthly salary (steady) I've contracted for as well.

The family glasses, tell me about it. That's why it feels bad as well. I have responsibilities that go beyond my professional dreams. It's a meal ticket I just threw in the trash. I just have to think positively, I'm going to sell more our services and that's it. I'll just see who our target group is once again, and just start calling them up and set up meetings. There's no way around it.

Besides... the company pays my rent and I get tax breaks as well, so I would have had that other job's salary on top of that, making my de facto income very good. However, without the company, no rent paid, I'd have to pay the whole income tax on the regular job plus rent, and no other tax breaks.... so without the company I'd make about +300-400 euros more. I wouldn't give it up for the price of 3-400 euros a month. I have much better chances at making more money with my company as it is. I'd have to put in 8 hours a day (more likely more), but with my company, I do as little or as much as I want, my schedule is usually free free and free, I only go see clients, but otherwise I just do off site. Plus we're getting a new office within 4 weeks I predict, so why would I want to miss that?

At the end of the day, I didn't give up much. Maybe it was just an illusion that it was a lot of things I gave up but I didn't.

[Pekka]

Good for you Pekka, the important thing is that you have options You aren't compelled to take the job just because it is there (this is a situation I have been in before in my earlier days)

Well I am also casually back on the job hunt. I have just been on a big project for nearly two years, seeing the world. But this project is over and for my company there aren't many projects on the go which causes me a problem because the German office free consultants will be the first to be assigned (I am UK office, which is very small and struggling really badly) which means although I will be paid regardless (unless the close the UK office, which is highly likely, but I will still receive redundancy and 3 months notice). But I just can't be doing with being sat around for months on end doing nothing but a bit of light reading...sounds great, and so far it has given me a chance to catch up on my gym (well I am actually still on holiday since Christmas, I'm not slacking ) but it will drive me insane after a while.

So the job hunt for me has started. I know I can command a bit more money than I am on, which isn't bad. Fortunately my boss isn't one for bullsh*t and is aware of the situation and what I am doing, he is doing similar himself. But like you, I am not panic-stricken or anything, I can take my time, see if there is anything I like. And I also have the option of going freelance too...the rates are alright, not what they once were, but will still give me more money than I can spend - good for saving

Well at least you have confidence - so things can't be too bad for you!

What did you do again? I remember something to do with chemistry? Bio-something?

I don't like companies when they try to own your expertise, as in sometimes companies are jealous and want you to use your expertise for them only and not grant permission to freelance on the side on your own time. I can understand it to some extent, there are risks of the employee not committing to their job if they do other jobs as well but sometimes companies don't want employees (and I'm talking about experts where knowledge and knowledge sharing is important) to collaborate with their other peers. Usually most peers know each other anyway or there are certain ways, customs, culture or something that they adhere to, they meet up, share, but they are not there to push their companies. Rather they just like to keep up with the scene, it's like academia and seminars, except take away the academia and add more social.

Some companies realize the value, but some are just reluctant. I know a lot about a company when I see their employee talking in some event I'm attending. I know the company at least in some level understand the urge and need to support their nerds, so they can do their nerdie little things because if they didn't, they would become disgruntled in their nerd ways and throw jokes that are stupid and .. .well, nerd.

[DaShi]

The flip flop thing was the one that really did it. I could also have looked past the weird question(s).

In here it is indeed illegal (or forbidden) to ask such questions. I have to consider that the person who asked it is very well aware of this policy so he intentionally broke it. I figure it was sample of what might come in the future. But it's the flipping thing that is the real factor here. I feel weird, I've never turned down a job, it would have been the best monthly salary (steady) I've contracted for as well.

The family glasses, tell me about it. That's why it feels bad as well. I have responsibilities that go beyond my professional dreams. It's a meal ticket I just threw in the trash. I just have to think positively, I'm going to sell more our services and that's it. I'll just see who our target group is once again, and just start calling them up and set up meetings. There's no way around it.

Besides... the company pays my rent and I get tax breaks as well, so I would have had that other job's salary on top of that, making my de facto income very good. However, without the company, no rent paid, I'd have to pay the whole income tax on the regular job plus rent, and no other tax breaks.... so without the company I'd make about +300-400 euros more. I wouldn't give it up for the price of 3-400 euros a month. I have much better chances at making more money with my company as it is. I'd have to put in 8 hours a day (more likely more), but with my company, I do as little or as much as I want, my schedule is usually free free and free, I only go see clients, but otherwise I just do off site. Plus we're getting a new office within 4 weeks I predict, so why would I want to miss that?

At the end of the day, I didn't give up much. Maybe it was just an illusion that it was a lot of things I gave up but I didn't.

I think you made the right choice. Companies sometimes forget that we have a choice of employer as well and are looking for red flags during the hiring process too. I recently saw a posting for a position that put under requirements, "Must have sense of humor." Sure, they could mean that it's a fun place to work and they want people who get that. But it also sounds like, "Must be able to take abuse." "Must have a sense of humor" is the douchebag mating call.

[rah]

I think you made the right choice. Companies sometimes forget that we have a choice of employer as well and are looking for red flags during the hiring process too. I recently saw a posting for a position that put under requirements, "Must have sense of humor." Sure, they could mean that it's a fun place to work and they want people who get that. But it also sounds like, "Must be able to take abuse." "Must have a sense of humor" is the douchebag mating call.

yep, couldn't agree more.

[Provost Harrison]

I knew there was a thread I meant to reply to before I disappeared off to the gym the other night

Well at least you have confidence - so things can't be too bad for you!

I have a bit of a dichotomy of confidence depending on the area of my life, but in terms of job stuff, yeah, I am supremely confident.

What did you do again? I remember something to do with chemistry? Bio-something?

Yeah, was a biochemist by education, more pharmacology/medical research by research field but I quit academia nearly 10 years ago now...haven't regretted it in the slightest. Well I ended up as an analytical chemist and QA/QC in the pharma field, but from that ended up being involved in projects, became an expert in SAP QM (and various other parts of ERP too) and now I consult in that...so I have drifted a bit from research in the past few years For the better I would say, variety is the spice of life and I am now earn many, many times more than when I was in the sciences.

I don't like companies when they try to own your expertise, as in sometimes companies are jealous and want you to use your expertise for them only and not grant permission to freelance on the side on your own time. I can understand it to some extent, there are risks of the employee not committing to their job if they do other jobs as well but sometimes companies don't want employees (and I'm talking about experts where knowledge and knowledge sharing is important) to collaborate with their other peers. Usually most peers know each other anyway or there are certain ways, customs, culture or something that they adhere to, they meet up, share, but they are not there to push their companies. Rather they just like to keep up with the scene, it's like academia and seminars, except take away the academia and add more social.

Some companies realize the value, but some are just reluctant. I know a lot about a company when I see their employee talking in some event I'm attending. I know the company at least in some level understand the urge and need to support their nerds, so they can do their nerdie little things because if they didn't, they would become disgruntled in their nerd ways and throw jokes that are stupid and .. .well, nerd.

Well I have been busy with my previous project (I was with a big pharma company implementing SAP QM, but I have been travelling the world doing that (only got back from Brazil just before Christmas) so I didn't have any time to do any other stuff on the side (the occasional bit of ABAP development, very occasional, and still for my firm) but now I am without a project, and due to the company not having much work in, and the German office being prioritised for any positions that come up, I am a bit out in the cold without much to do, and I don't like that one little bit so I am looking to move on (even my boss knows this and understands why, he is very frustrated with the situation himself).

But the world is my oyster. Either I can go for another consultancy firm or go freelance, the options are open. But I am not too worried, even without work I am still being paid to sit on my arse, although I don't like this, and if they axe the UK office I still have a 3 month notice period and redundancy money. And I have enough air miles and hotel reward points to take off anywhere in the world for a bit if I get too bored

But I have built up my own experience on this project and now it is time to see what I can trade that in for...

[Provost Harrison]

I think you made the right choice. Companies sometimes forget that we have a choice of employer as well and are looking for red flags during the hiring process too. I recently saw a posting for a position that put under requirements, "Must have sense of humor." Sure, they could mean that it's a fun place to work and they want people who get that. But it also sounds like, "Must be able to take abuse." "Must have a sense of humor" is the douchebag mating call.

Yeah, that is weird. I like a laid-back atmosphere but to ask for a "sense of humour" is a bit worrying...do you have to have a good sense of humour to accept their remuneration package?

[Pekka]

I knew there was a thread I meant to reply to before I disappeared off to the gym the other night



I have a bit of a dichotomy of confidence depending on the area of my life, but in terms of job stuff, yeah, I am supremely confident.



Yeah, was a biochemist by education, more pharmacology/medical research by research field but I quit academia nearly 10 years ago now...haven't regretted it in the slightest. Well I ended up as an analytical chemist and QA/QC in the pharma field, but from that ended up being involved in projects, became an expert in SAP QM (and various other parts of ERP too) and now I consult in that...so I have drifted a bit from research in the past few years For the better I would say, variety is the spice of life and I am now earn many, many times more than when I was in the sciences.



Well I have been busy with my previous project (I was with a big pharma company implementing SAP QM, but I have been travelling the world doing that (only got back from Brazil just before Christmas) so I didn't have any time to do any other stuff on the side (the occasional bit of ABAP development, very occasional, and still for my firm) but now I am without a project, and due to the company not having much work in, and the German office being prioritised for any positions that come up, I am a bit out in the cold without much to do, and I don't like that one little bit so I am looking to move on (even my boss knows this and understands why, he is very frustrated with the situation himself).

But the world is my oyster. Either I can go for another consultancy firm or go freelance, the options are open. But I am not too worried, even without work I am still being paid to sit on my arse, although I don't like this, and if they axe the UK office I still have a 3 month notice period and redundancy money. And I have enough air miles and hotel reward points to take off anywhere in the world for a bit if I get too bored

But I have built up my own experience on this project and now it is time to see what I can trade that in for...

That's interesting. I'm interested in pharma as well, I don't know a lot about it but it seems like a cool field, computer assisted medicine designing (I don't know the correct terms but this is the idea, I'm sure you know what I mean) would be something of an interest. I guess it's the same with everything, as an outsider you think it's cool and glamorous, and then the real deal is different - first you work really hard, and then it turns out to be laborious and not very stimulating. You really have to be into it, the core of it, and not be attracted by the glimmer you see first.

Another thing I might be interested in is designing data crunching algorithms and systems to be used in the field of bioengineering or what it would be called. I don't think I have the talent for it though. I'd like to be part of... enabling data collection of ... results of drug testing. I don't know what the processes are, but I'd like to develop systems and ways to integrate databases for big pharma for their research needs so they get much more information (as a result of combining different sources). This is of course already done by big pharma and companies that offer these kind of services but there's always more sophisticated and efficient ways that could provide added value that I'm interested in.This is all beside the point.

I feel much more confident now. I can't believe I was even thinking of trading all my time to a regular office job for an upside of 300 to 400 euros a month more. That just makes absolutely no sense. Another weirdness of the process: they wanted me to bring all my work and study certificates, sure. But they actually read them. usually they just see that they're there, the guy is honest, we'll just copy and archive them. This time he actually read them carefully. Each and everyone, including courses I've taken as an undergrad back in the days. Nobody has ever wanted to see them.

So what are your plans now? Are you going to actively seek a new job with some company, or look for freelance gigs or what? Take it easy for a while and see what comes up? Let the opportunity present itself?

[Pekka]

About "must have sense of humor", yeah, could mean anything but I don't like how there are many job offerings that have these "we look for" things.
1) You are flexible
2) You like challenges
3) You can handle pressure
4) You are ready and willing to adapt into new situations
5) You understand the necessity of ....

Means "You do OT without proper pay and our project management sucks, we don't allocate enough resources but luckily we have you to compensate; you like challenges as our project management sucks so we have you to compensate, look for surprises here!; A lot of our former employees have been committed to mental institutions because they weren't able to handle the pressure, we think they might have not been so fond of the challenges after all; you are ready to accept tasks that aren't in your contract, and you're willing to put up with anything our clients demand and you will also take the blame for it if they think something is going wrong; And at the end of the day, you know this is all very necessary and it's just the nature of the business".

Basically most IT job descriptions here ask for all of these 5 mentioned above, and yet they don't mention salary or even the scale of it. They want you to have a master's degree, some years of relevant work experience. Basically they ask for a lot of things but they don't offer anything back. Except:

1) A place in a dynamic company
2) A great front row seat at a fast pace and growing industry
3) Benefits of working for a known company
4) An opportunity to learn from experts

These mean absolutely nothing, it actually translates into "we can't pay you more than your regular entry level salary".

I think it's stupid how _some_ companies think they're the best place to work and actually run their employees like dogs, like it was some kind of an S/M club, where they should be thankful for being able to do OT without pay.

I really appreciate companies that don't do this BS. Stating that we're looking for entry level people. That's what we'll pay. We're not the biggest company, and we're in our Nth year so we're still finding our place. Not this "challenges and front row seat" crap.