How to embrace God's wisdom?

[Heraclitus]

I've offhandedly mentioned some internal conflict with my path to God (and probably Christianity) but I feel I need to talk to people about this. In RL this is a bit hard since serious and consitent theists are hard to find, Slovenia is a land of lapsed and Sunday only Chatolics as well as a sample of nominal Lutherans.


I'll try to list a few of the issues and thoughts succinctly. First off I'm not sure I can excuse transhumanist tampering, secondly I can't really support naked calsissm based on principal, also I've recently come to the tentative conclusion that I really can't act on prior probabilities based on stats like race, education, visual apparance, capabiltiy ect. Another stumbling block is internalising the dislike of homosexuality as a sin, which I have never had a problem with, even when I went full atheists paleocon right wing it felt odd to use a few pragmatic stat based arguments like a higher rate STDs incidence or stuff like that to rain on their parade when objectively speaking the right and religion are a OK with many many things that suck much more on pragmatic grounds.

I've also struggled with temptation, and a constant doubt because of the fact that I engaged in premarital sex quite often, which in a serious reading again despite all my intuitionist seems wrong. I've uneasily (hedonism in this regard was quite a vice of mine) decided when I started this to go for celibacy for now since I can't square it any other way but marriage still seems like madness until divorce laws become less man hating or until I find a deeply religious woman who would never consider demanding divorce (the odds going into marriage are statistically speaking quite poor).

Summary of things I have trouble really accepting or living (at least for now):
-no more fornication
-homosexuality sinful
-can't be "racist" or "classist" (can still be somewhat sexists in the traditional sense )
-transhumanism (genetic engineering, transhuman eugenics (beyond preservation) and creating God-like AIs is a no no )
-actually loving one's enemies

[giblets]

Just reinterpret the Bible until it fits your preconceived notions. It's what everyone else does.

[Heraclitus]

Just reinterpret the Bible until it fits your preconceived notions. It's what everyone else does.

I can't in good conscience read the Bible consider it a part of the holy tradition coming from Jesus Christ, really belive in God and actually think that he would be ok with the kind of society and fate for mankind I (used to?) consider ideal.

Sure Christianity can be interpreted to fit a notion of a organic society quite well and in terms of evo psych it gives good marital adivce and intersexual interactions advice but its simply doesn't seem the best mix of pragmatism and values I would come up with.

That is why the thread title is how to learn to accept God's wisdom isntead of relying on one's own faulty intellect.


BTW Another problem:
-Taking the afterlife really seriously and not fearing death

[Thoth]

The "no more fornication" is a deal killer.

Embrace secularism and revel in debauchery.

[Al B. Sure!]

I think Heraclitus is trolling trying to show how absurd religion is. The thing about gays and okay to be sexist makes me think it's a troll.

[giblets]

I can't in good conscience read the Bible consider it a part of the holy tradition coming from Jesus Christ, really belive in God and actually think that he would be ok with the kind of society and fate for mankind I (used to?) consider ideal.

Sure Christianity can be interpreted to fit a notion of a organic society quite well and in terms of evo psych it gives good marital adivce and intersexual interactions advice but its simply doesn't seem the best mix of pragmatism and values I would come up with.

That is why the thread title is how to learn to accept God's wisdom isntead of relying on one's own faulty intellect.


BTW Another problem:
-Taking the afterlife really seriously and not fearing death

When you read the Bible, how do you make sense of the words on the page without relying on your faulty intellect? Is God beaming the concepts directly into your brain when you read the Bible? If God can just beam the concepts into people's heads why even bother making people read some book?

[Heraclitus]

When you read the Bible, how do you make sense of the words on the page without relying on your faulty intellect? Is God beaming the concepts directly into your brain when you read the Bible? If God can just beam the concepts into people's heads why even bother making people read some book?

The Bible is a part of the holy tradition, not the sum total of it. I'm not into sola scripta. I rely much on church fathers and others that where clearly touched by the holy spirit.

Without faith one could easily be born with all the concepts necessary and it would make no difference to their salvation, but if God was to force faith on all humans that would not leave much room for free will would it? Sure perhaps the faithful would have a easier time if they had a ready inbuilt database once they did find faith, but man is fallen after all we can't really seek perfection in him or the world for that matter.

Also subjective emotional experiences and deep longing for God's love aren't exactly rational process, what I think you are going for is the general fallibility of the human brain right?

[Heraclitus]

I think Heraclitus is trolling trying to show how absurd religion is. The thing about gays and okay to be sexist makes me think it's a troll.

Love the sinner hate the sin, is the proper phrase I think.

Sexism in the sense of considering different normative gender roles for males and females, also having the husband be the head of the family.

[Al B. Sure!]

Yeah you got to be trolling

Husband as the head of the family and different gender roles

I appreciate what you're doing, Hera. Let's see what the religious people have to say in response.

[Heraclitus]

Yeah you got to be trolling

Husband as the head of the family and different gender roles

I appreciate what you're doing, Hera. Let's see what the religious people have to say in response.

You can't really come up with a coherent Christianity that is compatible with no division of labour and social roles between the sexes with regards to family life. I would love (or perhaps cringe) to see someone else argue that one can do this.

Feminism and Christianity are fundamentally incompatible. But I'm pretty ok with that since Feminism has seemed more a joke than anything else ever since my teens.

What bugs me is the incompatibility with thranshumanism and ethnocentrism.
As well as a no no on premarital sex (but that is more a case of weak flesh rather than mind)

[Al B. Sure!]

Yeah that's why I want to see what these 'tolerant' Christians like Imran and Jon Miller come up with.

[giblets]

The Bible is a part of the holy tradition, not the sum total of it. I'm not into sola scripta. I rely much on church fathers and others that where clearly touched by the holy spirit.

So you have to interpret what the church fathers say using a faulty brain. Or does God beam the concepts into your brain when you read/hear their words?

Without faith one could easily be born with all the concepts necessary and it would make no difference to their salvation, but if God was to force faith on all humans that would not leave much room for free will would it? Sure perhaps the faithful would have a easier time if they had a ready inbuilt database once they did find faith, but man is fallen after all we can't really seek perfection in him or the world for that matter.

Still doesn't explain how you expect to understand what God says with your faulty brain... how can you use God as an alternative to your faulty reasoning without divine intervention? It doesn't sound like something you can do yourself...

[Jon Miller]

You have some hard ones.

-no more fornication

I take this to mean, no more sex outside of marriage. This is a pretty difficult one and one I admit to not being sure on. Some thoughts of mine on the matter:

I agree. Sex is meant to be bonding between individuals who love each other. Sex is meant to bring intimacy into a relationship. Doing any of these things with just anyone is devalues sex, and makes it less useful for bonding, shared intimacy, and so on. If you are so physically close with some girl whose name you don't know, it weakens the meaning of being physically close/intimate. This is why most open relationships are much weaker than non open relationships and fail more often (percentage wise). Note these are thoughts, I have never had sex with someone I wasn't in love with and serious about.

Note that most people inherently know this. Most don't want open relationships. Even those guys who say 'yeah, one night stands are great/etc' who come from cultures which present them as great and the right thing to do (ie Sweden), still show a significant preference towards keeping sex for relationships.

I am not married, I have had sex. I know how difficult it it is to take a relationship, to move the relationship forward without sex entering in. And it is quite easy to move from kissing (which is generally not considered sex) to things that are considered sex. And it is very difficult to have a relationship and not have it moving forward. A relationship that is stationary, feels like it is moving backwards. Relationships that are good want to keep moving forward, to marriage. So yeah, having a relationship but no sex is difficult.

I guess the best solution is to find someone who you can get to know to decide if they are good for you without moving quickly into sexual and emotional intimacy. I think this is quite difficult right now, probably even with very Christian men/women.

I know people who have waited until marriage (Through over 3-6 years of dating!). One who got divorced regretted it, not because he wanted to have sex with someone else, but because sex pulled them together even when they weren't having sex (and they were emotionally intimate). He wondered if they had had sex, that maybe they could have realized they weren't really weren't right for each other. I really don't know, I think a lot of people get together over sex, and when it ends they split apart.

One serious point, which a lot of people miss, is this though, You don't need sex. Not really, even if you feel like you do. Those who say 'how can I go a month without sex'/etc are just being ridiculous. How can they be in a serious relationship that way? You won't always be able to be with your wife. I am not sure if a young(ish) man can be without having a girl they want to have sex with or watching porn. When I was younger I thought that porn was less damaging, now I think it is wiser to just want a girl rather than just watching porn.

This could take a book, I think. And I am probably wrong on many things (I don't think everything though). But these are just some thoughts. I can go without sex (and not watch porn), I can't really go without being sexual with my girlfriend.

-homosexuality sinful

I might get the ire of Asher, who I like, but will give my thoughts.

I think that heterosexuals engaging in homosexual activities are being sinful.

Paul, in the new testament, in the versions I remember, seems to say that homosexuality is the result of sin. Remember, in the Bible sin done in the past influences the present and the future.

This seems to fit well with the studies I keep reading of homosexuality in nature where it seems to be caused by pollution in the environment. That birds shows increased incidents of homosexuality over time as their environment was polluted more. I consider pollution to be sinful btw, in the myth of genesis 1&2&etc, emphasis is placed on man's stewardship of the land, the earth, and the animals. Our pollution is a failure of this charge, a sin just as much as failing to love and obey God in other ways.

So basically, if you aren't homosexual, than I don't think you should engage in homosexual activity. Now there are many people who think that they should be open to everything, even though they say they have just been attracted to girls. If you are homosexual, than I encourage you to find another and live how I think people (heterosexual or homosexual) should live (in a loving, monogamous, long term, stable relationship). Good to adopt (or otherwise have) children too. Get the most out of life!

But these are just my thoughts; I could be wrong. I think that this is between the person and God. I, a sinner, have no part in condemning other sinners (which is everyone, although I am sure others will feel hurt at being called a sinner).

-can't be "racist", classist can be somewhat sexists in the traditional sense

I am afraid I don't understand why you want to be racist, classist, or sexist.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We are God's children. Spiritually, you and a billionaire are the same. In fact, things might be easier for you because you don't have as many temptations as he!

As far as the sexes go, I think it obvious that there are differences. Some women are physically stronger than most men, but men are on average physically stronger than women. I think that this will continue to be true without genetic engineering. But just because one person is a hand and another a leg doesn't mean that the hand is better than the leg or the leg is better than the hand (see Paul's description of different talents and abilities).

I think if you follow healthful and good living (which is what a lot of the detailed 'crazy' laws in the old testament were about) you will be blessed. Whether you are Jew or Greek or Sub-saharan African.

-transhumanism

I guess it depends on what you think of transhumanism. If you think about it as becoming more than human, that is what Christianity is about.

Christianity is about us sinful humans. Being trapped and enslaved to sin. But there is a solution, Christ came and offered us a way out. By having faith in Him, by accepting His gift, He promises to transform us. To create in us a new creature. This is an ongoing process in our lives, but at some point our transformation will be complete! And we will not be enslaved to sin and death. We will be beyond suffering!

If you are focused on transhumanism by our own efforts, than yeah, traditional Christianity doesn't fit.

-actually loving one's enemies

This fits into my last response. Loving one's enemies is really impossible for humans. It is only by Christ living in us that we can love our enemies. And as mentioned, it is a process, not an instant change into perfection. But we will be perfect through Christ.

JM

[Elok]

Yeah you got to be trolling

Husband as the head of the family and different gender roles

I appreciate what you're doing, Hera. Let's see what the religious people have to say in response.

Another winner from Al "women are all *****es" B. Sure...

Homosexuality is something I've always considered none of my business. Throughout history the Church has opposed the behavior, but I'm not gay, and devoting any time to dwelling on somebody else's ostensible misbehavior sounds stunningly unhelpful from a spiritual perspective, if not downright toxic. Sexism or any other kind of -ism based on pecking order or superiority, doubly so. The point of Christianity is to focus on your own screwups as a human being and reorient yourself towards God. If you think a lot about whether you're better or worse than anybody else, you're really missing the point.

Transhumanism...honestly, I don't get what thrills you so much about that at all. Probably because I'm extremely cynical. Read C.S. Lewis's "Abolition of Man" for a Xian perspective on it (be warned that it's not his best book, and rambles between several subjects). Actually, I recommend Lewis for everyone trying to get into Christianity; he crosses denominational lines and approaches doctrinal issues with great humor and insight.

As for learning to accept God, I'd suggest you look somewhere other than Poly. While it's not all atheists by a long shot, the atheists tend to dominate and they can be incredibly boorish smegs--as you probably noticed. Go into patristics if you can't take your local churches seriously. St. John Climacus's "Ladder of Divine Ascent" comes to mind, if you can get it. The best course of action, from my POV, is to find a good Orthodox monk to talk some sense into you.

[SlowwHand]

I've offhandedly mentioned some internal conflict with my path to God (and probably Christianity) but I feel I need to talk to people about this. In RL this is a bit hard since serious and consitent theists are hard to find, Slovenia is a land of lapsed and Sunday only Chatolics as well as a sample of nominal Lutherans.


I'll try to list a few of the issues and thoughts succinctly. First off I'm not sure I can excuse transhumanist tampering, secondly I can't really support naked calsissm based on principal, also I've recently come to the tentative conclusion that I really can't act on prior probabilities based on stats like race, education, visual apparance, capabiltiy ect. Another stumbling block is internalising the dislike of homosexuality as a sin, which I have never had a problem with, even when I went full atheists paleocon right wing it felt odd to use a few pragmatic stat based arguments like a higher rate STDs incidence or stuff like that to rain on their parade when objectively speaking the right and religion are a OK with many many things that suck much more on pragmatic grounds.

I've also struggled with temptation, and a constant doubt because of the fact that I engaged in premarital sex quite often, which in a serious reading again despite all my intuitionist seems wrong. I've uneasily (hedonism in this regard was quite a vice of mine) decided when I started this to go for celibacy for now since I can't square it any other way but marriage still seems like madness until divorce laws become less man hating or until I find a deeply religious woman who would never consider demanding divorce (the odds going into marriage are statistically speaking quite poor).

Summary of things I have trouble really accepting or living (at least for now):

-no more fornication

I guess it depends on the denomination, but this is not one of the bigger problems for the Methodist church. I'm not saying that as a whole it's embraced, but nobody will say you're going to Hell over it.

-homosexuality sinful

Again, from the Methodist viewpoint, it's fairly accepted that it's a part of a person's genetic makeup. I've said it here before, if a person accepts that's it's genetic makeup, your only alternative to condemning a gay is to say God messed up. I'm not prepared to do that. People are people.

-can't be "racist" or "classist" (can still be somewhat sexists in the traditional sense )

Now you're getting into a bigger deal. None of that really is a good thing. People all have basic needs and desires. A color or gender shouldn't come into play.

-transhumanism (genetic engineering, transhuman eugenics (beyond preservation) and creating God-like AIs is a no no )
-actually loving one's enemies

Another biggie. Stem research to cure debilitating disease is a slippery slope. Does God want us to preserve people's lives beyond what we perceive as His plan, or has He given mankind brains to use to make things better? I believe the latter. As far as cloning of life, it's pretty much thought that it's not acceptable, to my knowledge.

Let me point out that faith may not be always easy, but it's easy as you make it. It's hard to comprehend what His plan is sometimes, but that's where you have to reach down farthest and pull up your faith.