"America is the greatest country on Earth..."

[Elok]

The definition I have been given for totalitarian is "the government can tell you what to do no matter what". I was under the impression that this is the case in china. I suppose either my definition or impression are incorrect or both?

Definitions are difficult to give, but generally I'm inclined to cite Hannah Arendt's view: totalitarian governments are absolutely loyal to their ideology regardless of any more pragmatic concerns. Hence they do absolutely insane things like liquidate whole social or occupational classes (including indispensable ones like engineers or doctors), or dedicate men, money and material to keeping death camps running while your country is being invaded from two directions. Or--pretty much anything NK has done except the dirty nuclear-diplomacy game they use to extort aid from us. They certainly don't quietly sideline their Dear Leader's ideas the way China has done to Mao.

[Al B. Sure!]

Would Mussolini's Italy be considered totalitarian? Napoleonic France? Cromwell's Protectorate?

[Darius871]

They can't search or seize without a court warrant.

Eh, no. By now the exceptions swallow the rule and can be hypothesized after the fact to boot. It doesn't even take the "shady ****" to which Albie refers.

[Elok]

Would Mussolini's Italy be considered totalitarian? Napoleonic France? Cromwell's Protectorate?

Don't know enough about any of them to say for sure, but I'd certainly lean towards 'no' for Napoleon, who had no overriding ideology I ever heard of. And it's generally considered a uniquely modern phenomenon originating in the twentieth century. Well, actually, its philosophical underpinnings originated in the bull**** social theories of Rousseau, so if anything revolutionary France before Napoleon would be a stronger contender. Random, senseless killings, extreme paranoia, purges of unacceptable ideological elements, no freedom of conscience, and overwhelming faith in the strong, just man who would save France. End result: a complete fustercluck of a state.

[BeBMan]

"Totalitarian system" was first used for Mussolini's fascism IIRC, sometimes even by pro M guys but then as a positive term.

Overall, pre-20th century forms of rule are usually not filed under totalitarian afaik, because (amongst other things) a key point of totalitarianism is the strong use of propaganda to get your ideology into everyone. This is seen as a problematic thing to do before modern mass media like radio etc became available (certainly propaganda as such is much much older, but the point is how far it reaches).

Also in other ways it's not really thinkable before 1900. For example the political mobilization of large parts of the population in strictly organized mass parties and/or mass movements (though not always totalitarian) is not something you see in the same dimension before (also not identic to stuff during the US or French revolution).

[DaShi]

There's no point in arguing about China anymore. The country is over, finished. It was defeated by the Nobel Peace prize. Try as they might to survive the onslaught, the mighty Chinese empire was forever vanquished by the Nobel council of Oslo.

I guess I'll have to get my tea from India now.

[Cort Haus]

Is tea actually legal in the States? I'd have thought there was a mortal terror that drinkers of tea would immediately proceed to wearing red coats and marching up and down singing songs in praise of George III.

(I have no idea where you actually post from, btw)

[DaShi]

Yes, yes, and I do.

[Elok]

It's perfectly legal, but the most popular brands are Lipton and Snapple. Bleh. I've got some Irish brand called Barry's right now, somewhat better than Red Rose as far as bagged teas go. [/snob]

[MRT144]

Leave. Go live in Colombia.

British Colombia?