Gay marriage should never be recognize by the state because...

[Lorizael]

Those are all the result of engineering.

Steel, gunpowder, and fission are not engineering. Building useful (or deadly) applications of them, however, may be.

If there was no religion people would just use some other mechanism to push their prejudices.

It's true.

[MOBIUS]

It's a fair point though. If there was no religion people would just use some other mechanism to push their prejudices. Most of the things that really drive me crazy about modern religions, the ones I bang on about all the time, have no basis in Christianity or Islam anyway. It's just people using religion as an excuse to push their evil views.

Completely agree. We're seeing the new battle lines being drawn up by the increasing polarisation of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. At least in its portrayal by the media.

[MikeH]

It's a good point Lori.

So, you are suggesting that like science, religion isn't intrinsically dangerous/evil, it's just down to how people use it. I guess I'd counter that, unlike science, religion doesn't give any benefits to us.

[C0ckney]

i agree with that mike. there are certainly things that people say and do, in the name of some religion, for example saying people shouldn't use condoms to stop the spread of AIDS or blowing themselves up on trains etc. which deserve to be condemned. however, to go from that to condemning religion full stop is a bit like damning all science because of hiroshima.

edit: crazy x-post, was responding to mike at 162!

[Lorizael]

It's a good point Lori.

So, you are suggesting that like science, religion isn't intrinsically dangerous/evil, it's just down to how people use it. I guess I'd counter that, unlike science, religion doesn't give any benefits to us.

Of course, and then the obvious response is that religion can bring people together, strengthen communities, provide charity for the impoverished, serve as institutions for learning and recordkeeping, etc. These qualities aren't exclusive to religion, of course, but religion does have them.

[MOBIUS]

i agree with that mike. there are certainly things that people say and do, in the name of some religion, for example saying people shouldn't use condoms to stop the spread of AIDS or blowing themselves up on trains etc. which deserve to be condemned. however, to go from that to condemning religion full stop is a bit like damning all science because of hiroshima.

edit: crazy x-post, was responding to mike at 162!

Except that you always end up coming back to the central point that religion is a fiction designed to control its adherents. People are being taken advantage of through their gullibility.

[Lorizael]

...designed to control its adherents.

Don't tell me you're an IDer! It clearly originated through natural processes!

[C0ckney]

Of course, and then the obvious response is that religion can bring people together, strengthen communities, provide charity for the impoverished, serve as institutions for learning and recordkeeping, etc. These qualities aren't exclusive to religion, of course, but religion does have them.

i would add to this, it can give people personal comfort, solace, hope etc. in times of need or distress. things which are naturally impossible to quantify, but no less real for that.

[MOBIUS]

Of course, and then the obvious response is that religion can bring people together, strengthen communities, provide charity for the impoverished, serve as institutions for learning and recordkeeping, etc. These qualities aren't exclusive to religion, of course, but religion does have them.

Exactly. IMO the UK is sort of suffering a kind of moral and ethical vacuum left by the retreat of belief in the church by the public. We don't seem to have a distinct moral and ethical teaching framework to replace those positive things that the church did, also going to prison or a slap on the wrist is far less onerous than an eternity in hell - perhaps this is what Cameron's 'Big Society' is to become after all...?

[MOBIUS]

Don't tell me you're an IDer! It clearly originated through natural processes!

How can you call making people believe in a made up storybook character a natural process!?

[MikeH]

i would add to this, it can give people personal comfort, solace, hope etc. in times of need or distress. things which are naturally impossible to quantify, but no less real for that.

And again, things we can and do have without religion.

Nothing else can replace what science does, but the main benefits of religion are things we can have within communities anyway.

[MOBIUS]

i would add to this, it can give people personal comfort, solace, hope etc. in times of need or distress. things which are naturally impossible to quantify, but no less real for that.

Only as a placebo - homeopathy for the spirit!

[MikeH]

I think there's quite good historical and anthropological evidence that religion has been a fairly natural and evolved process. I think humans naturally spot patterns in things that aren't there, and we tend to assign causality when there is none.

I can see how can gradually evolve through that. So one day someone throws an old dagger in the river and the next day the rains come and people start giving more offerings to the river and sooner or later there's a river god who you pray too for rain.

Human nature then takes over a bit, and there have and will always be people who'll try and manipulate others based on the fear of the river god or what have you.

[C0ckney]

And again, things we can and do have without religion.

Nothing else can replace what science does, but the main benefits of religion are things we can have within communities anyway.

but whether those things can be done elsewhere or in other ways (i don't deny this, although whether you can replace someone's faith with something else depends entirely on the individual) is irrelevant IMO. the fact is that an enormous number of people have faith and their relationship with God provides those things for them.

[Lorizael]

How can you call making people believe in a made up storybook character a natural process!?

Because I have some understanding of how the brain works?

Edit: MikeH said it better.