Gay marriage should never be recognize by the state because...

[Elok]

I always thought those Mohammed cartoons were asinine anyway. I mean, sure, they have the right to print them, but it's not like everybody's routinely seized by a desire to doodle a seventh-century warlord. The main reason to draw Mohammed is to spite the people who say you can't draw Mohammed. Childish.

[MOBIUS]

i'm not trying to convince you of anything. i'm simply saying that there's no point in having this debate with you. for much the same reason that there's no point in having a debate with drinksnacks about barack obama or what socialism is...

Fine, I'll go on thinking that religion is silly and nutty because no one can show me otherwise.

But your crappy attempt to compare me with Mr Snacky is pretty 'badly thought out, puerile and insubstantial', is it not...?

For a start we are dealing with real and substantial people and concepts. I can at least prove that Barack Obama exists, whereas you can't do the same with God. Also, whilst I may not agree with certain politicians and political movements, I can usually understand the logic of their motives and beliefs. So I fail to see how you can compare the two things, save as a crutch for your crude attempts at character assassinating me by comparing me to one of Poly's more colourful retards...

[MOBIUS]

You didn't ask for a population of atheists, which, as the article points out, is a term that only originated in the 16th century; you asked whether there were populations of non-believers.

And there certainly have been. From the less mystical sects of Buddhism to certain schools of Hinduism to Greek materialists and Sophists, there have clearly been segments of the populations that were without a belief in a god.

Also, and IMO one of the central illogicalities of religion, any population that doesn't believe in your God is a non-believing one...

Though I am the first to admit to being pedantic on this...

The point is (which doesn't serve your argument well, JM) that with humanity's increasing enlightenment, atheism has also increased.

Only the ignorant and those who choose to bury their heads in the sand, still believe in these dangerous superstitions...

[Proteus_MST]

Also, and IMO one of the central illogicalities of religion, any population that doesn't believe in your God is a non-believing one...

Though I am the first to admit to being pedantic on this...

Sometimes it was even enough to not believe in the right version of the god.
Just think about the gnostics and other christian sects, which were persecuted (with their believers killed and their sriptures getting burned) by the "right believing" catholic christians as soon as christianity gained influence in the roman empire, although often their version of christianity had only minor differences from the catholic one (for example differing only in their views concerning trinity or the divinity of Jesus)

[MOBIUS]

I always thought those Mohammed cartoons were asinine anyway. I mean, sure, they have the right to print them, but it's not like everybody's routinely seized by a desire to doodle a seventh-century warlord. The main reason to draw Mohammed is to spite the people who say you can't draw Mohammed. Childish.

Exactly. It's and act of deliberate provocation and therefore extremely disrespectful.

[MOBIUS]

Sometimes it was even enough to not believe in the right version of the god.
Just think about the gnostics and other christian sects, which were persecuted (with their believers killed and their sriptures getting burned) by the "right believing" catholic christians as soon as christianity gained influence in the roman empire, although often their version of christianity had only minor differences from the catholic one (for example differing only in their views concerning trinity or the divinity of Jesus)

The only reason Protestantism survived was that it was too big to be ruthlessly crushed like, for example, the Cathars...

[MikeH]

Thou Shalt Not Kill (unless the other guy disagrees on some incredibly minor point of scripture)

[C0ckney]

mobius when it comes to religion, you've done all your own character assassination with your posts on the subject.

i know there are a lot of subjects about which it's possible to have a reasonable conversation with you. unfortunately, religion isn't one of them. at least mike can admit that he can't be reasonable about it.

[MikeH]

No-one's disputing what we are saying though. Religion is and has been the cause of huge suffering in the world.

[Lorizael]

But that, in and of itself, is not an argument against religion. The same can be said of science, what with the swords and the guns and the nukes.

[MikeH]

Those are all the result of engineering.

[MikeH]

It's a fair point though. If there was no religion people would just use some other mechanism to push their prejudices. Most of the things that really drive me crazy about modern religions, the ones I bang on about all the time, have no basis in Christianity or Islam anyway. It's just people using religion as an excuse to push their evil views.

[MOBIUS]

mobius when it comes to religion, you've done all your own character assassination with your posts on the subject.

i know there are a lot of subjects about which it's possible to have a reasonable conversation with you. unfortunately, religion isn't one of them. at least mike can admit that he can't be reasonable about it.

The problem is, since my ongoing journey of enlightenment WRT religion (ably accelerated by Poly, IIRC I was merely Agnostic when I first joined - I think I was officially 'meh'), I have come to the entirely logical conclusion given the evidence on both sides, that religion is a dangerous fiction used by men to control others, which has brought untold suffering to the world.

If you think that that viewpoint is unreasonable, then fair enough.

[MikeH]

BTW I get equally annoyed about other beliefs like homeopathy, ghosts and astrology, but those subjects never come up here. If they did you'd see I was very consistent.

[MikeH]

The problem is, since my ongoing journey of enlightenment WRT religion (ably accelerated by Poly, IIRC I was merely Agnostic when I first joined - I think I was officially 'meh'), I have come to the entirely logical conclusion given the evidence on both sides, that religion is a dangerous fiction used by men to control others, which has brought untold suffering to the world.

If you think that that viewpoint is unreasonable, then fair enough.

Yeah. Me too. Almost exactly the same. I would definitely have said I was agnostic a few years ago.