Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

Purgatory can not be proved from the bible, but that isn't really a big issue for Catholics

Yes, it can, and Catholics refer to the two passages I quoted above as scriptural evidence for Purgatory. And yes, it's a big deal. Did you not catch that Luther was excommunicated for saying the exact same thing as you did?

The Purgatory isn't in the bible

Yes, it is in the bible, Barnabas. Right in the NT.

BTW, the ideas that sins of death people can be forgiven after their death, and that dead Saints know what goes on on Earth and can listen its inhabitants prayers can be found, quite clearly, in the books that Catholics and Orthodox have in the Old Testament, that neither Jews nor Protestants accept.

Why are you using wikipedia over the Catechism? Wikipedia gets it wrong, again.

The prayers for those who are dead, yes, it's in maccabees, but their sins cannot be forgiven. Those who are in Purgatory are already saved, they are simply relieved of their suffering.

It's hard enough teaching protestants Catholic theology, let alone Catholics...

[Barnabas]

Purgatory can not be proved from the bible, but that isn't really a big issue for Catholics, or other old Eastern Apostolic Churches (that don't believe in Purgatory but believe in something similar to it without the word Purgatory)

Catholics believe that God founded a Church, Jesus came to establish a Church. Jesus didn't hand out bibles, he created the Church (you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church), and the Church created the Bible for Herself. The Church is above the Bible.

If a doctrine can be proved to have been believed by Christians, always, it is considered to be true even if it is not clearly defined in the bible.
The Purgatory isn't in the bible, but Christians pre-reformation, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, have always prayed for the sins of the death to be forgiven.
Since people in Heaven don't have sins to be forgiven, and people in Hell are doomed, then other place, which Catholics chose to call Purgatory, must exist, in which people have sins that can be forgiven by the prayers of the people on earth (because of Gods Mercy)

The same happens with prayers to Saints, inscriptions that say stuff like Peter and Paul pray for us! go back to the first centuries of the Christian Era.

BTW, the ideas that sins of death people can be forgiven after their death, and that dead Saints know what goes on on Earth and can listen its inhabitants prayers can be found, quite clearly, in the books that Catholics and Orthodox have in the Old Testament, that neither Jews nor Protestants accept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Maccabees

"Catholics and Orthodox consider the work to be canonical and part of the Bible. Protestants and Jews reject most of the doctrinal innovations present in the work."

Doctrinal issues that are raised in 2 Maccabees include:
* Prayer for the dead and sacrificial offerings, both to free the dead from sin[6][7]
* Merits of the martyrs
* Intercession of the saints (15:11-17) (at least as seen from a Christian viewpoint)
* Resurrection of the dead

[Berzerker]

its kinda fun though, I got some crazy ideas myself

[Dinner]

Arguing over what people's imaginary friend wants doesn't seem very productive to me.

[Berzerker]

sorry, but the "god(s)" depicted in the Bible is a thug. The creator of existence is not getting pissed off because some guy is gathering firewood. The creator of the universe aint throwing a tantrum because people wont listen to the Pope, or Moses, or Muhammed, or Jesus...

or me

But I do think Jesus was closer to a spiritual "truth"

I like Bill Maher's routine on the discussion between God and Jesus (not you, I mean me)

[Nikolai]

Discussions like this are fruitful. Civil and interesting.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's the thoughtful back and forth between Protestants and Catholics which will continue until the day Jesus comes back . I tend to be more Protestant and more universalist (though I haven't completely worked through what that entails), so my views are slightly different than both in some aspects, though probably more in line with Nikolai's (albeit I have entained thoughts that instead of Hell, Christians are sent to Purgatory to be finally cleansed before they come before God because Jesus, when he went into Hell after the crucifixtion, by conquering death saved everyone, regardless of what they do or believe - then again I also believe in a God of love who would hate to have anyone suffer and be tortured).

[Ben Kenobi]

No one is really convincing anyone here... but it's interesting reading nonetheless.

Yep, I figured it was interesting. Glad you took the time to read through it because it was your question that prompted the response.

[Elok]

Well, our position today is that we were okay with the Pope as "first among equals," ie what the Ecumenical Patriarch is today: wears the biggest hat, gets the most respect, no real power. He might be able to get that back if he dumped the thousand years of accumulated heresies. I don't think that's going to happen though.

[Jon Miller]

Catholics love tradition. Most of the ancient churches did not beleive in Papal primacy, as seen in there being Copts and Syrians and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox and Armenians (and Mar Thomas).

Note that these churches are in some ways more similar to Catholics than the Protestants are though.

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

He's fine right here, Mr Fun. However, the arguments between Catholic and Protestant readings have been fleshed out for centuries. No one is really convincing anyone here... but it's interesting reading nonetheless.

[MrFun]

You guys who are trying to reason with BK - do you like bashing your head against a brick wall?

[Ben Kenobi]

An official excommunication from the church should not be a necessary step as such, the locals should do that fine. 1st Corinthians speak of personal contact and friendship, not official sanction.

I'm in full agreement, but excommunication is the absolute last step, when all other avenues of accord have been exhausted. The bull of excommunication here, is essentially the pope serving notice to Luther that he would be excommunicated at some point if they didn't reach an understanding on these issues.

Luther wasn't actually excommunicated until after the Council of Trent, where he, Zwingli, and other prominent reformers were invited. Luther declined. The Council was the pope's attempt to reconcile with Luther.

This, btw only applies to Christians. It doesn't apply to non-Christians.

In case which they do not need anything from us.

True. Indulgences are not necessary. They will only shorten the time spent in purgatory.

Either you are saved, or you are not. If you are saved, no further cleansing is required from the living's side.

No, but we know that no evil can be in God's presence. So the venial, unconfessed sins that we bear at our time of death will need to be cleansed away before we can be admitted into heaven.

We baptize because it's the ourward sign of our surrender to God. Anyone who becomes a Christian should baptize, if not, I'd seriously question the seriousness of his conversion. But if you die before you have had the possibility to be baptized, you are still saved.

It's not just an outward sign. It purifies us from the taint of sin. Other then this, everything else is exactly the same as what Catholics believe. It doesn't mean that it prevents us from sinning in the future, just that after we are baptised we are purified from sin.

[Nikolai]

Then why does Matthew specify that some sins can be forgiven after judgement?

Well, does he now? That statement in Matthew can be taken in more than one way you know.

Why would judgment day test our works? "Your works will be tested by fire." Why would failing the test, still save you?

Your works is not your faith. Faith saves, works is tested by fire. You see, you left our verse 15:

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Which is really weird, as that verse is what supports your claim best. As it can mean more than one thing, I don't buy purgatory just yet though.

[Nikolai]

This argument for apostolic succession comes from the Keys to the Kingdom of heaven. This is actually an allusion to a similar key given by the priest of melchizedek to the House of David. The Keys are understood to be an inherited title which can be passed on from one to another.

The allusion is here:

Isaiah 22:19-20



When Christ gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, he is establishing a dynasty of Christ here on earth, his Church. The keys are to be passed down through the church, the same way as the key of the House of David was passed down through the heirs.

Good explanation, although I don't buy the pope's primacy just yet.

Luther is saying that an excommunication has only external consequences and not spiritual consequences.

The Church can excommunicate a just man, as the Church is made up by fallable men and can make errors. In such a situation, no spiritual consequences would be present. The Church does not stand above God, and when in error, God rules, so to speak.

The rationale for excommunication comes from 1 Cor 5:11

1 Corinthians 5:11

This means that we should associate with people who claims to be Christians, but is in fact not, by proof of their lives. An official excommunication from the church should not be a necessary step as such, the locals should do that fine. 1st Corinthians speak of personal contact and friendship, not official sanction.

Excommunications can be lifted with repentence. No one is ever cut off from God, but there are serious spiritual consequences for excommunication. It is meant to be a wake up call.

I understand that, but question the form.

And that is all the Church is arguing. The sacrament of confession can only be performed by the priest. One can certainly confess your sins to other Christians, but they cannot perform the sacrament.

I see no difference. Priests can hear confession of sins, so can you and I. Priests can guide the person, so can you and I, if we have the wisdom of Christ. Something all Christians can have if their life with God is tight. Priests cannot forgive sins, they can only communicate God's forgiveness, which He gives to all who comes to Him and asks for it, it being in prayer, through a priest or through you and me.

They aren't buying forgiveness. If they are in purgatory, they are already saved.

In case which they do not need anything from us. When we are dead, playtime is over. Either you are saved, or you are not. If you are saved, no further cleansing is required from the living's side. Saving is personal, between the person and God. No good deeds from dead humans can help another person, just as little as yours or mine can, or our money and belongings.

Then why do you baptise? Christ says that you must be born again of water and the spirit.

We baptize because it's the ourward sign of our surrender to God. Anyone who becomes a Christian should baptize, if not, I'd seriously question the seriousness of his conversion. But if you die before you have had the possibility to be baptized, you are still saved.

That a child baptised will be saved.

Yes, I believe so.