Do lambs hate lions?

[KrazyHorse]

Indeed. Lions are so scarce that they befriend the lambs (at least the smarter lambs).

[KrazyHorse]

What if the lions are led by donkeys?

Then they would die. It's not unheard of.

It simply means that there's more meat for the stronger/faster/smarter lions.

[Drake Tungsten]

So who is truly friendlier to the noble lion, the donkey or the elephant?

[Solomwi]

Give the lions property rights in the lambs. Only then can we make sure that the lambs don't get together and do something disastrously counterproductive for all, and that the incentives of the lions and lambs are aligned in a way that best ensures that both continue to thrive.

[KrazyHorse]

Unfortunately it's not that simple. The lambs often do counterproductive things.

The lions are not perfect, however. There is a tragedy of the commons here. If lambs were rational, then the ecosystem would be fine. Bearing in mind the irrationality of the lambs, lions should eat less of them/pretend to be sorry about eating them. However, it takes only a few lions to eat too many lambs and the lambs react stupidly.

Plus, would you really want to give lions the right to eat specific lambs to the exclusion of all other lions? It seems a bit feudal to me.

[DaShi]

Perhaps at some point people have to realize that:

a) there is somebody more fit for survival out there
b) there is somebody who is the fittest for survival

This shouldn't lead to hatred or jealousy. Just acceptance of your place in the world.

You should be Chinese.

[Drake Tungsten]

If lambs were rational, then the ecosystem would be fine. Bearing in mind the irrationality of the lambs, lions should eat less of them/pretend to be sorry about eating them. However, it takes only a few lions to eat too many lambs and the lambs react stupidly.

I would argue that the irrationality of lambs and their consequent hatred for lions is the mechanism by which the lions worthy of leading the pride are separated from the rest. Only a truly gifted lion can eat lambs and make them grateful to him for it.

[KrazyHorse]

So who is truly friendlier to the noble lion, the donkey or the elephant?

I believe that the elephant is friendlier to the earth as a whole, but the donkey may benefit the strongest lions more by turning many of the weaker lions into vegetarians.

[KrazyHorse]

I would argue that the irrationality of lambs and their hatred for lions is the mechanism by which the lions worthy of leading the pride are separated from the rest.

Leadership is overrated. It's all about the meat.

[Drake Tungsten]

Leadership is overrated. It's all about the meat.

The pride leader gets to eat first, taking the most succulent pieces of meat.

[Solomwi]

You bring up good points, but a good system of lambs as property would avoid the tragedy of the commons, and should give the lions adequate leverage to minimize the lambs' irrational behavior. After all, it's not like we can count on the lambs to do that for themselves.

Under my system, a lion who gorges himself on too many lambs sees his own flock suffer as a result. Other lions are provided with a cautionary tale, and other lions' lambs perhaps get a sense that they have it pretty good in their flocks, all things considered. The main thing is that the damage is contained to the perpetrator's flock (assuming, of course, adequate mechanisms to protect the lions from other lions). Plus, building a sense of identity with the flock could help foster an altruistic worldview in the lambs with low risk of the same spreading to the lions.

I'm not going to even start in on all the innovations in lamb deliciousness this could lead to.

[KrazyHorse]

The pride leader gets to eat first, taking the most succulent pieces of meat.

Well, to some extent this isn't a perfect metaphor.

Let's pretend that lions don't hunt in packs, and actually prefer the meat of other lions to that of lambs (lambs don't complain when lions get eaten, unless the lions are very small and live in the same neighbourhoods as the lambs)

Really, this is more about cannibal lions.

[Drake Tungsten]

Well, that changes everything...

[Solomwi]

The pride leader gets to eat first, taking the most succulent pieces of meat.

Well, to some extent this isn't a perfect metaphor.

Let's pretend that lions don't hunt in packs, and actually prefer the meat of other lions to that of lambs (lambs don't complain when lions get eaten, unless the lions are very small and live in the same neighbourhoods as the lambs)

Really, this is more about cannibal lions.

Ah, then yes. Lions who get eaten should understand and accept their place in the world. Uh, posthumously. Others who may be eaten should understand their place in the world, but strive to better it, if they're capable enough.

[KrazyHorse]

You bring up good points, but a good system of lambs as property would avoid the tragedy of the commons, and should give the lions adequate leverage to minimize the lambs' irrational behavior. After all, it's not like we can count on the lambs to do that for themselves.

Under my system, a lion who gorges himself on too many lambs sees his own flock suffer as a result. Other lions are provided with a cautionary tale, and other lions' lambs perhaps get a sense that they have it pretty good in their flocks, all things considered. The main thing is that the damage is contained to the perpetrator's flock (assuming, of course, adequate mechanisms to protect the lions from other lions). Plus, building a sense of identity with the flock could help foster an altruistic worldview in the lambs with low risk of the same spreading to the lions.

I'm not going to even start in on all the innovations in lamb deliciousness this could lead to.

Exactly. You're favouring lamb deliciousness at the expense of, say, lamb fertility. Why should we prefer one method of increased wealth at the expense of the other?

Lion altruism toward lambs is a pleasant fiction. At the end of the day, one is dead and one is sated.