The Fall of the Occident is near

[BeBMan]

I thought more for 480 BC.

[Az]

Europe still owes Greece for 1054 and 1204.

The people / socio-political entity that refers to is long gone and has nothing to do with modern Greece. in fact, Greece still owes the west for helping it secure independence against the Turks.

The Catholic west is destined to suffer for back-stabbing their byzantine brothers in christendom, but that justice will be served as W. Europe is overrun by muslims and there will be noone there to assist them.

Personalizing populations is fun.

[BeBMan]

the attitude of the greek people astonishes me. in the EU, latvia, hungary, romainia and ireland have had big financial problems and have already had to take some pretty touch medicine. do the greeks think they're too good for that?

what happens when the markets lose confidence in portugual, or spain and they need a bailout. i wonder how politicians in northern europe are going to sell that to their people. at what point does it become unsustainable for southern european nations to be members of the euro?

That's really the question, I don't see how similar bailouts can happen for everyone in line, esp. not if it hits Spain or even Italy, which has probs too. Of course, right now everyone hopes that they won't need it. Greece alone is bad, but otoh their economy isn't so big that it would really threat the Eurozone as a whole if things go more downhill only there. But if it leads to other countries getting in trouble....

[C0ckney]

The people / socio-political entity that refers to is long gone and has nothing to do with modern Greece. in fact, Greece still owes the west for helping it secure independence against the Turks.

The Catholic west is destined to suffer for back-stabbing their byzantine brothers in christendom, but that justice will be served as W. Europe is overrun by muslims and there will be noone there to assist them.

bah! the catholic countries will be next in line, looking for a handout from their hard working protestant brethren in northern europe

[Riesstiu IV]

Southern Europe established civilization and writing centuries before you lazy Northies. In fact, the Roman Empire subsidized building roads, public baths, aqueducts, and other infrastructure throughout the North so they could civilize hairy, smelly, ginger barbarians like the Welsh. And how did you bastards repay them? By not paying taxes, raping and burning everything in sight, and immigrating en-masse to the beaches of Italy, Spain, and North Africa (Though for whatever reason the Angles and Saxons thought it would be a splendid idea to move to Britain at the height of the Dark Ages)

God knows what advances Europe would have had if it weren't for the North inaugurating 500 years of brutality, ignorance, and religious zealotry. There would probably be hover-boards and personal jetpacks.

[Az]

(Though for whatever reason the Angles and Saxons thought it would be a splendid idea to move to Britain at the height of the Dark Ages)

makes me wonder how **** is the weather in southern denmark...

[Kontiki]

... so they could civilize hairy, smelly, ginger barbarians like the Welsh.

What an epic fail that was.

[Ecofarm]

God knows what advances Europe would have had if it weren't for the North inaugurating 500 years of brutality, ignorance, and religious zealotry. There would probably be hover-boards and personal jetpacks.

There are personal jetpacks.





Just thought you'd like to know.

[BlackCat]

(Though for whatever reason the Angles and Saxons thought it would be a splendid idea to move to Britain at the height of the Dark Ages)

makes me wonder how **** is the weather in southern denmark...

Could be better

http://www.dmi.dk/eng/index/forecasts.htm

[BeBMan]

Southern Europe established civilization and writing centuries before you lazy Northies.

Civilization didn't start before the German Reinheitsgebot of 1516AD which specified that the only ingredients that could be used in the production of beer were water, barley, and hops

[Dinner]

Lambics are good yet the German barbarians tried to outlaw them.

[BeBMan]

BTW, there was indeed a try here recently by some guys to halt bailout measures for Greece via preliminary injunction (if that's the English term?), but the constitutional court didn't take the case.

Meanwhile, this:

EU finance ministers have agreed on emergency measures worth 500bn euros (£430bn) to prevent the Greek debt crisis from affecting other countries.

The 16 members of the single currency bloc will have access to 440bn euros of loan guarantees and 60bn euros of emergency European Commission funding.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) will also contribute up to 250bn euros.

Economic Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said the agreement proved "we shall defend the euro whatever it takes".


ANALYSIS
Jonny Dymond
By Jonny Dymond
BBC News, Brussels

What was meant to be a two-hour meeting of European finance ministers turned into an 11-hour negotiation - but in the early hours of Monday morning here officials and politicians had a deal.

For weeks confidence had been draining away from eurozone economies with high deficits and debt. This package is designed to show financial markets that weaker countries, or those suffering speculative attack, will be defended.

The European Central Bank is also involved; it has confirmed that it will for the first time buy European governments debt.

There had been fears that without the measures, the euro might have come under pressure on markets as investors grew concerned about financially-troubled states such as Portugal and Spain.

The euro has strengthened in early trading in the Far East, surging above $1.29.

On Friday, eurozone leaders approved an 110bn-euro loan package to Greece, which will be backed by the EU and IMF.

"The IMF will play its part, in the interests of the international community, in addressing the current challenges," said IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn in a statement early on Monday.

Marathon talks

Speaking early on Monday after 11 hours of talks, Spanish Finance Minister Elena Salgado announced that an agreement had been reached on a package to defend the euro and eurozone economies.


We are placing considerable sums in the interest of stability in Europe
Elena Salgado
Spanish Finance Minister

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Under the aid plan, the European Commission would make 60bn euros available to support member states experiencing "difficulties caused by exceptional circumstances beyond their control", she said.

Ms Salgado said eurozone member states would "complement such resources through a Special Purpose Vehicle", known as the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism and worth 440bn euros, which they would guarantee on a pro-rota basis over a period of three years.

The IMF will contribute an additional sum of at least half of the EU's contribution to the SPV - a total of 250bn euros.

"It shows through this decision that we are placing considerable sums in the interest of stability in Europe.

"Our conclusions also reiterate yet again the need for progress to be made on regulating the financial system, on oversight and the supervision of the financial system, in particular derivatives and the role of rating agencies," she said.

The European Central Bank (ECB) also announced that it would buy eurozone government and private debt "to ensure depth and liquidity in those market segments which are dysfunctional".
What went wrong in Greece?

An old drachma note and a euro note
Greece's economic reforms that led to it abandoning the drachma as its currency in favour of the euro in 2002 made it easier for the country to borrow money.

The opening ceremony at the Athens Olympics
Greece went on a debt-funded spending spree, including high-profile projects such as the 2004 Athens Olympics, which went well over budget.

A defunct restaurant for sale in central Athens
It was hit by the downturn, which meant it had to spend more on benefits and received less in taxes. There were also doubts about the accuracy of its economic statistics.

A man with a bag of coins walks past the headquarters of the Bank of Greece
Greece's economic problems meant lenders started charging higher interest rates to lend it money and widespread tax evasion also hit the government's coffers.

Workers in a rally led by the PAME union in Athens on 22 April 2010
There have been demonstrations against the government's austerity measures to deal with its 300bn euro (£267bn) debt, such as cuts to public sector pay.

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou at an EU summit in Brussels on 26 March 2010
Now the government is having to access a 110bn euro (£95bn; $146.2bn) bail-out package from the European Union and International Monetary Fund.

Greece's problems have made investors nervous, which has made it more expensive for other European countries such as Portugal to borrow money.
Greece's problems have made investors nervous, which has made it more expensive for other European countries such as Portugal to borrow money.

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In a statement, the bank said the scope of the purchases was yet to be determined, but that they would be offset by liquidity-absorbing operations so as not to affect the stance of monetary policy.

EU laws prevent the ECB from buying bonds directly from governments in the way the US Federal Reserve and Bank of England have done. It can get round the restriction by buying debt second-hand from banks.

"The fiscal efforts of the EU member states, the financial assistance by the commission and by the member states, actions taken today by the ECB prove we shall defend the euro whatever it takes," said Mr Rehn.

The Federal Reserve later said it would re-open currency swap facilities with other major central banks "to help improve liquidity conditions in US dollar funding markets and to prevent the spread of strains to other markets and financial centres".

In an interview with Russian media, US President Barack Obama said: "I am very concerned about what's happening in Europe. But I think it is an issue that the Europeans recognise is very serious."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8671632.stm

[C0ckney]

i think the big issue here that no one is talking about is inflation. i mean, it was a 30 billion euro bailout a few short weeks ago and now it's potentially 500 billion! they better sort it out soon before it gets any bigger.

[Wezil]

Spain and Italy are helping to bail out Greece?

Can Greece then use that money for the upcoming bailouts of Spain and Italy? Is that how this process works?

[BeBMan]

From the Q&A here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10104169.stm

There is a lot of fine detail still to be worked out. The 60bn euros in emergency lending is available immediately and can be drawn on now by countries such as Spain and Portugal.

But a special purpose vehicle to dish out 440bn euros in bilateral loan guarantees will take longer to set up.

The ECB will intervene as and when it thinks necessary, buying bonds to help bolster confidence and kick-start markets.

However, the ECB will not be pumping fresh money into ailing economies. The ECB's purchase of bonds will be matched by the selling of other securities.

So, the package will not be used to fund the public spending cuts and tax rises needed in bloated economies such as Spain and Portugal.