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  • Afghan records denial is privilege breach: Speaker

    Big news. The House Speaker has ruled that MPs should be provided with uncensored documents about the handling of Afghan detainees by the Canadian army.

    The federal government's refusal to produce uncensored documents related to the treatment of Afghan detainees constitutes a breach of parliamentary privilege, Speaker Peter Milliken has ruled.



    The federal government breached parliamentary privilege with its refusal to produce uncensored documents related to the treatment of Afghan detainees and must provide the material to MPs within two weeks, Speaker Peter Milliken has ruled.

    During his lengthy ruling Tuesday afternoon in the House, Milliken called on House leaders, ministers and MPs to find a "workable accommodation" to satisfy all parties "without compromising the security and confidentiality contained."

    Milliken ruled Parliament had a right to order the government in December to produce uncensored documents to members of a special committee examining allegations that detainees transferred to Afghan custody were tortured.

    He said the order was "clear" and procedurally acceptable but acknowledged it had no provision to protect sensitive information within the material.

    "It is the view of the chair that accepting an unconditional authority of the executive to censor the information provided to Parliament would, in fact, jeopardize the very separation of powers that is purported to lie at the heart of our parliamentary system and the independence of its constituent parts," Milliken told the House.

    "Furthermore, it risks diminishing the inherent privileges of the House and its members, which have been earned and must be safeguarded."

    On Dec. 10 of last year, the Commons passed an opposition motion ordering the government to produce unredacted documents pertaining to the Canadian transfer of detainees to Afghan custody. But Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government has refused to comply with that order, citing national security concerns.

    In response, MPs from all three opposition parties submitted questions of privilege to Milliken last month that called for several government ministers to be held in contempt of Parliament, arguing that the House's "supreme" power over the prime minister is a basic tenet of democracy.

    Tories welcome 'possibility' of compromise

    In a brief statement to reporters shortly after Milliken's decision, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson said the government "welcomes the possibility of a compromise while respecting our legal obligations, acknowledged by the Speaker."

    "The government will not knowingly break the laws that were written and passed by Parliament," Nicholson said. "Our government will not compromise Canada's national security, nor will it jeopardize the lives of our men and women in uniform."

    The minister did not take any questions after the statement.

    It is possible the Conservatives will view the ruling as an issue of non-confidence and call a vote in the House, which could trigger a snap election. The government could also ask the Supreme Court to hear the case.

    Ruling 'a clear victory for Parliament': Ignatieff

    Speaking after Milliken's ruling, Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff called it "a clear victory for Parliament, for the people of Canada, for democracy and a clear defeat for the Conservative government."

    He said he would instruct Liberal House leader Ralph Goodale to consult his Conservative counterpart and find a solution in the next two weeks "that vindicates the right of the Canadian people to have documents and also respects the considerations of national security."

    "I'm absolutely convinced what the Speaker is saying to us is that you can trust an MP to respect the national security of our country," Ignatieff said. "What's changed is the Speaker, the highest authority in our Parliament, has said, 'Sort it out'."

    NDP Leader Jack Layton also hailed Milliken's decision as a "very strong and important ruling."

    "The Speaker stood up for members of Parliament and for the people elected by the people of Canada against a Harper government that simply wanted to act in a contemptuous way towards Parliament," Layton told reporters.

    Ruling: Iacobucci's 'client' is government

    A special parliamentary committee on the Afghanistan mission and a civilian-run military watchdog have been investigating allegations that Canadian officials handed over prisoners to Afghan custody with the knowledge they would be tortured.

    Government and military officials, past and present, have vehemently denied the allegations and insist Canada's troops have always respected international law.

    The government recently appointed retired Supreme Court justice Frank Iacobucci to review the material to determine what can be released.

    But opposition parties have decried his appointment as a delay tactic to avoid potentially embarrassing revelations about what the Conservatives knew about torture allegations — and when they first learned of them.

    The MPs have argued that Iacobucci's review will likely take months and that the government is under no obligation to make his findings public.

    In his ruling, Milliken said that in his view, since Iacobucci reports to the justice minister, "his client is the government."

    MacKay not in contempt

    Milliken also ruled that Defence Minister Peter MacKay did not intimidate government witnesses slated to appear before the parliamentary committee on the Afghan mission when he pointed out that any information they provided to the committee must comply with the Canada Evidence Act.

    The opposition had accused MacKay of trying to scare witnesses into withholding information out of fear that they might violate the Act.

    Milliken said he agreed with the government's position that MacKay's statements, made in the House of Commons in December 2009, constituted debate since they occurred during question period.

    The Speaker expressed "concern" over a letter sent by assistant deputy minister of justice Carolyn Kobernick on Dec. 9, 2009, to House law clerk Rob Walsh. In it, Kobernick said there may be "instances where an act of Parliament will not be interpreted to apply" to the Houses of Parliament or their committees.

    In that case, the opposition had argued the effect was also to dissuade government bureaucrats from providing information to the committee — this time out of fear that some of the usual protections might not apply to their testimony and that what they say could end up damaging them.

    Milliken said the letter could be interpreted as having a "chilling effect" on public servants who are called to appear before parliamentary committees. But he said there does not appear to be sufficient evidence to conclude that Kobernick's letter constitutes a direct attempt to prevent or influence the testimony of any witness before a committee.
    In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

  • #2
    Something any first year Poli Sci student could tell you. Harper missed those classes apparently.
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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    • #3
      The big question is what will happen in two weeks time when Harper refuses to comply?
      "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
      "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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      • #4
        You think he's turning it into a confidence vote?
        In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

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        • #5
          I'm really enjoying minority governments.

          There should be a poll option - "X, but Y if X' party wins a majority".
          In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Wezil View Post
            The big question is what will happen in two weeks time when Harper refuses to comply?

            He'll delay by referring it to the SC.
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            • #7
              Good call by the speaker.
              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Oncle Boris View Post
                You think he's turning it into a confidence vote?
                Originally posted by notyoueither View Post
                He'll delay by referring it to the SC.

                I think the first step, to buy time, will be to send it to the SCC. I suspect the SCC will punt it back to Parliament. After that it may lead to an election.

                The last thing I expect to see is the government in any way complying. Whatever they are covering up it is obviously political dynamite. We'll go to the polls without/before knowing what that is.
                "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Asher View Post
                  Good call by the speaker.

                  Agreed.

                  He affirmed Parliament's supremacy while acknowledging the legitimate concern of national security. His two week window allows the government a chance to come around with a compromise (most agree there are many 'workable' ways to do this). Unfortunately, "compromise" is word unknown to the PM.
                  "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                    I think the first step, to buy time, will be to send it to the SCC. I suspect the SCC will punt it back to Parliament. After that it may lead to an election.

                    The last thing I expect to see is the government in any way complying. Whatever they are covering up it is obviously political dynamite. We'll go to the polls without/before knowing what that is.

                    I don't think the SC will punt, and I do not think they are assured to agree with the Speaker.
                    (\__/)
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                    (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                    • #11
                      It is the fifth year of a government's mandate. A motion is brought in the House to the effect that an election is not needed for another two years...

                      Yes, Parliament is supreme, but a motion brought and carried should not trump laws that have passed three readings in both chambers and received Royal Assent.

                      There is a difference.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by notyoueither View Post
                        I don't think the SC will punt, and I do not think they are assured to agree with the Speaker.


                        Explain?
                        "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                        "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by notyoueither View Post
                          It is the fifth year of a government's mandate. A motion is brought in the House to the effect that an election is not needed for another two years...
                          Such a Motion would violate the rules and tradition.

                          Yes, Parliament is supreme, but a motion brought and carried should not trump laws that have passed three readings in both chambers and received Royal Assent.

                          There is a difference.
                          We're talking about Parliament's right vis-a-vis the executive. Lots of historical blood has been shed to settle this issue and the PM is clearly off-side.

                          If the Supremes take it (and I agree they might) you will see a decision very close to the Speakers well considered ruling. Then off course we get an election, as Harper will not comply.
                          "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                          "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                            Such a Motion would violate the rules and tradition.

                            It would violate a law. Does the Canada Elections Act have more juice than the Official Secrets Act?

                            We're talking about Parliament's right vis-a-vis the executive. Lots of historical blood has been shed to settle this issue and the PM is clearly off-side.

                            I'm not sure about that. Without studying to be a Google legal expert, I'm thinking that the government and civil service are compelled by legislation to withhold information to a certain extent.

                            I'm doubting that the Official Secrets Act has a clause to the effect of not being effective in the event of the opposition playing political football with militarily sensitive information during a minority parliament.

                            If the Supremes take it (and I agree they might) you will see a decision very close to the Speakers well considered ruling. Then off course we get an election, as Harper will not comply.

                            I'm not so sure.
                            Last edited by notyoueither; April 29, 2010, 22:09.
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                            (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                              The last thing I expect to see is the government in any way complying. Whatever they are covering up it is obviously political dynamite. We'll go to the polls without/before knowing what that is.
                              Let's assume for a minute that it is a terrible case of abuse... well, I doubt any party supported an "anything goes" platform on prisoners... so where's the political implications. Presumably, the abuse was against the law and criminals will be held accountable just as they are in the civilian world (which, we should note, is not without cases of terrible abuse).

                              If there was any political ammo to be had, it would have leaked. It is being suppressed because it is embarrassing in general nationally and there are probably some security concerns.

                              Why is it political dynamite? Do you think it turns out that your political opponents ordered abuse?
                              Everybody knows...Democracy...One of Us Cannot be Wrong...War...Fanatics

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