Afghan records denial is privilege breach: Speaker

[Wezil]

It would violate a law. Does the Canada Elections Act have more juice than the Official Secrets Act?

So are you really arguing this is a case of national security? You can conceive of no way Parliament's right to access can be done in a secure way?

There are 1000's of bureaucrats that handle documents just like these on a daily basis. Somehow the country survives.

Serious question (sounding out your starting point) - Do you believe Harper has taken this position because a) national security, b) there's a huge political stinkbomb in the documents, or c) some other reason?


As to the SCC difference of opinion, I guess we can let that one ride for a bit as we both agree a reference to the court is at least likely. Let's see what they do with it.

[Wezil]

Let's assume for a minute that it is a terrible case of abuse... well, I doubt any party supported an "anything goes" platform on prisoners... so where's the political implications. Presumably, the abuse was against the law and criminals will be held accountable just as they are in the civilian world (which, we should note, is not without cases of terrible abuse).

If there was any political ammo to be had, it would have leaked. It is being suppressed because it is embarrassing in general nationally and there are probably some security concerns.

Why is it political dynamite? Do you think it turns out that your political opponents ordered abuse?

I'm not sure you understand the background Eco.

In essence - It is a violation of international law to turn over control of captured prisoners to those that will torture them. The allegation is that Cdn soldiers turned over Afghan prisoners to the NDS when they knew (or should have known) they would be abused.

The question, as always, is "what did you know and when did you know it". There is one particular memo sent by a Cdn diplo to his superiors that has the interest of those that want an answer to this question as the author claims the government was warned long before they claim they were.


edit - To clarify. Contrary to Conservative spin, no one is blaming the Cdn soldiers for this. The blame (if any) rests with politicians that may have put them in this position.

[Wezil]

OTTAWA - A solid majority of Canadians believe prisoners detained by Canadian soldiers have been tortured after being transferred to Afghan authorities, a new Ipsos Reid poll suggests.

A fat majority also say that if torture occurred, it was not only wrong but that they believe there was widespread knowledge of it within the Canadian government -- and that senior officials should lose their jobs, if that was the case.

Pollster John Wright said Canadians are saying they "care deeply" about the possibility of detainees being tortured after Canadian soldiers have transferred them to Afghan custody.

"They're saying it's not proper, it should have stopped and, if it didn't, somebody should have done something about it," he said.

Of the 61% who believe torture occurred, 59% said they think the tactic was routine, compared to 34% who believe it happened only on rare occasions, the poll suggests.

Quebecers were more likely to believe transferred detainees were tortured. Seventy-six per cent of them took that position, whereas residents of Alberta were the least likely to believe it, at 44%.

The poll, conducted exclusively for Canwest News Service and Global Television, lands amid ongoing political fireworks in Ottawa over how to get to the bottom of widespread reports that Afghan authorities have tortured suspected Taliban insurgents after they were handed over by Canadian soldiers.

Almost eight in 10 surveyed said that, assuming transferred detainees were tortured by the Afghan authorities, the actions are "wrong, and once known should have stopped."

One in five, or 19%, agreed with the statement that torture was "just fine because this is war and this sort of thing happens."

In the poll, most of those surveyed said that if torture was happening, they believe government officials, politicians and Canadian Forces personnel knew about it.

[b]More than half -- 52% -- said they believe Prime Minister Stephen Harper knew what was going on, and the same percentage said they believe individual soldiers knew it was happening, according to the poll.

However, a much larger majority -- 75% -- said they believe senior Canadian military officials would have known that transferred prisoners were being tortured. Sixty-five per cent said they believe the minister of defence had to have known, and 66% said they believe the Defence or Foreign Affairs Department were in the know.

Canadians see the story as a "chain-of-command issue" where responsibility rests at the top, and not with individual soldiers, said Mr. Wright, senior vice-president of Ipsos Reid.[b]

Ninety-three per cent of those surveyed said they are proud of the men and women serving in the armed forces, the highest rating ever recorded by the polling firm, Wright said.

A majority said that if it is determined that officials knew as far back as 2007 that torture was taking place and didn't do anything to stop it, or denied it was happening at all, then top bosses should be ousted from their jobs.

Fifty-seven per cent said the defence minister, now Peter MacKay, should be forced to resign, and 56% said the chief of defence staff, currently Walter Natynczyk, should go.

The poll is based on telephone interviews with 1,000 adults, which were conducted last Tuesday through Thursday. The results are considered accurate to within plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=3006329

The cover-up isn't working.

[Asher]

No, but the fact that this has been so protracted certainly has.

The story isn't sensational, it's not hurting the poll numbers. I agree with the majority in the polls mentioned, but I'm still shockingly indifferent about it. If you asked me, I'd say "yes, they should lose their jobs" but it's not going to affect how I vote.

In that respect, the "cover up" certainly is working by sucking out a lot of the punch-factor the story once had.

[Wezil]

If it was a case where the Cdn public truly didn't care there would be no need to cover up. The scandal has "legs" despite the best efforts of the Cons to starve it of oxygen.

I said before - Torture is not a Canadian value.

[Asher]

The fact that someone covers it up doesn't mean the public truly cares enough to change their votes. It just means the Tories thought they might care enough to change their votes.

Clearly, they erred in that thought as the polls don't show them hurting much from it. If anything, the cover up itself hurt them more.

FWIW, Torture is very much a Canadian value...have you ever watched 'Question Period' in the House? Or CBC? Or listened to Anne Murray, Nickelback, or Celion Dion?

[Wiglaf]

Nickelback

[Wezil]

The fact that someone covers it up doesn't mean the public truly cares enough to change their votes. It just means the Tories thought they might care enough to change their votes.

Perhaps. The poll doesn't talk about voting preferences so in this case...

Clearly, they erred in that thought as the polls don't show them hurting much from it.

Aside from the fact the Cons still can't gain any political ground despite facing an absolutely pathetic Opposition for years on end? The public does not, and will not, trust them. The above poll shows that. Despite the lack of concrete evidence just look at who the public believes - We trust Colvin over the man that publicly smeared him.

If anything, the cover up itself hurt them more.

It usually does. You'd think politico's would figure that one out.

FWIW, Torture is very much a Canadian value...have you ever watched 'Question Period' in the House? Or CBC? Or listened to Anne Murray, Nickelback, or Celion Dion?

You made this point before. Masochism is not torture.

[Asher]

I don't think Canada will elect a "conservative" government in name any time soon, simply because of what we see south of the border.

Whenever they edge towards majority territory, it immediately trends back down as it spooks people.

Canadians take a lot of pride in "not being like Bush", and conservatived is equate with Bush's neocon bull****.

[Wezil]

I don't think their problem is ideology so much as style. The Harper gov came to power following Adscam promising to be more "open and accountable" and turned out to be worse than their predecessors.