Western Civilization had a nervous breakdown in 1914

[Heraclitus]

People like to talk about how WW2 changed everything, but I think we tend to underestimate how important a effect on the Western mind WW1 had in itself (without factoring in that without WW1 there would have been no such thing as the Nazis or a succesfull Communist revolution in Russia or the immense destruction of WW2).


I wonder who here agrees or disagrees and why.

[BeBMan]

My impression was that in Germany the dealing with Nazi time and WWII had almost completely wiped out the memories of WWI at least in the broader public for a long time, though after re-unification focus changed somewhat again (not in favour of WWI only, but generally towards a more balanced perspective that isn't ignoring most of the time outside 1933-45).

Quite some time ago I read somewhere that for example in France even post-WWII the experiences of the Great War had always a much more prominent place in people's memories, but haven't digged deeper into that.

[Riesstiu IV]

Serb triggered Europe's mental breakdown?

[rah]

The impact of the treaty signed to end WWI was responsible for the financial ruin of the German middle class which made the rise of the Nazis possible. People were desperate and looking for anyone to blame it on and who could fix it. The Nazis pandered to that quite well. While it was just one of the many causes that led to WWII, it was one of the major factors.

[Heraclitus]

You can't really have WW1 without WW2. Perhaps a German vs. Frech and Russians and perhaps a seperate Japanese war with China or perhaps the US but not anything resembling WW2.

[Az]

Actually, I would say that the entire 20th century fits the bill pretty well ( whatever western civ means, probably people of european christian heritage )

Consider the end of the 19th century: in the span of 400 years, the aforementioned people conquered the entire world (basically) and eliminated the greatest danger on their own home turf (The Ottoman empire), reducing it to a joke. This was done mainly by rarely treating parties from outside that bill ( people of christian european ancestry) as equal partners - if you had "westerners" fighting "westerners" with the assistance of anyone else, it was pretty clear who was top dog.

basically, you europeans (you white americans, canadians and australians are a part of them also! sorry for your delusions) lost the edge by fighting way too much among themselves, and not solidifying your grasp over the planet.

ha-ha

[SlowwHand]

You can have more than one nervous breakdown.

[Drake Tungsten]

French Revolution

[Dr Strangelove]

I once had an untouched coloring book for boys from the beginning of the 20th century. It had belonged to my grandmother, evidently it was meant to be given to her brother, who died. What was interesting about the book was that it wasn't horses, or toys, or cars or planes, it was soldiers, especially white European soldiers. German soldiers goose-stepping in their spiked helmets, British soldiers standing guard in India, French soldiers fighting swarthy Ayrabs, American soldiers (also in spiked helmets) marching along newly acquired Phillipines streets, Russian soldiers guarding the Hermitage, Italian soldiers, Spanish soldiers, Austrian soldiers, Greek soldiers, Dutch soldiers, etc, etc. The only non-European representative was the Japanese soldier, depicted marching along the Chinese countryside. Each happy soldier was depicted in his waiting to be colored accurately detailed full dress uniform.
The book expressed a widely held value of the time, a deeply held nationalistic chauvinism, an obsession with things military, an actual longing for the glory of war. WW1 smashed all those ideals. War ceased to be glorious, soldiers weren't dashing, they were victims and the ones who came back were often mere shadows of their former selves.
I think the real secret to Nazi Germany's success in the first 2 years of war was that they managed to recuperate from the war revulsion that had gripped Europe after WW1. In 1939, 1940, and 1941 their opponents just didn't have the heart to make the sacrifices needed to contain the Nazis, but the Nazis were willing to do whatever it took to win.

[MRT144]

I once had an untouched coloring book for boys from the beginning of the 20th century. It had belonged to my grandmother, evidently it was meant to be given to her brother, who died. What was interesting about the book was that it wasn't horses, or toys, or cars or planes, it was soldiers, especially white European soldiers. German soldiers goose-stepping in their spiked helmets, British soldiers standing guard in India, French soldiers fighting swarthy Ayrabs, American soldiers (also in spiked helmets) marching along newly acquired Phillipines streets, Russian soldiers guarding the Hermitage, Italian soldiers, Spanish soldiers, Austrian soldiers, Greek soldiers, Dutch soldiers, etc, etc. The only non-European representative was the Japanese soldier, depicted marching along the Chinese countryside. Each happy soldier was depicted in his waiting to be colored accurately detailed full dress uniform.
The book expressed a widely held value of the time, a deeply held nationalistic chauvinism, an obsession with things military, an actual longing for the glory of war. WW1 smashed all those ideals. War ceased to be glorious, soldiers weren't dashing, they were victims and the ones who came back were often mere shadows of their former selves.
I think the real secret to Nazi Germany's success in the first 2 years of war was that they managed to recuperate from the war revulsion that had gripped Europe after WW1. In 1939, 1940, and 1941 their opponents just didn't have the heart to make the sacrifices needed to contain the Nazis, but the Nazis were willing to do whatever it took to win.

Which actually became one of the things that held them back. They didn't know to restrain themselves from the bottom up. Look at all the idiotic war machines they developed.

[SlowwHand]

I think you're absolutely right. It took great provocation to bring each Allied country into it.

[Kuciwalker]

invalid poll

[Az]

The book expressed a widely held value of the time, a deeply held nationalistic chauvinism, an obsession with things military, an actual longing for the glory of war. WW1 smashed all those ideals. War ceased to be glorious, soldiers weren't dashing, they were victims and the ones who came back were often mere shadows of their former selves.
I think the real secret to Nazi Germany's success in the first 2 years of war was that they managed to recuperate from the war revulsion that had gripped Europe after WW1. In 1939, 1940, and 1941 their opponents just didn't have the heart to make the sacrifices needed to contain the Nazis, but the Nazis were willing to do whatever it took to win.

If we look at this as strong indication, that basically the deepest revulsion that is caused by war is a stagnation, a conflict that is prolonged and doesn't seem to be moving anywhere. If there is dynamism, the populace will most likely support it: whether the heroism of war is in a defensive or offensive posture it doesn't matter - in the eye of the public the futility of WWI in europe was precisely the lack of change, by a murderous standstill in which thousands laid their lives daily, while no change was achieved.

I wonder if this public/societal perception is covered in this "war as a machine" book many people seem to recommend to me.

[aneeshm]

The seeds were sown on the 31st of October, 1517 - all that came later was the logical unfolding.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

aneeshm? Try depicting WW1 as a holy war and I will still be laughing at you many years from now.