Lord, liar, lunatic, legend?

[Elok]

Well, then, my answer is the same as when Molly (IIRC) raised this point: the so-called "pagan Christs" are only Christlike in the most superficial way. At least, all the ones I know of. They're good guys who die and come back to life, that's it. You might as well say Superman is a clear ripoff of Hermes since they're both humanoids with the ability to fly.

Consider Osiris: He's killed by ambush, totally without his own consent, by his brother Set, who spitefully hacks him into pieces and scatters the parts all over the world or Egypt, forget which. O's wife, Isis, dutifully scours the globe for each and every part, except for the pecker which was eaten by a fish and has to be replaced by a hunk of wood, and puts them back together. He reigns as the judge of the dead.

Compare Christ: surrenders willingly to his executioners so that by his death he might save them. He is killed with his body intact by a drawn-out form of torture, and raises himself from the dead after going whoop-ass on the Underworld. He will eventually return as judge of the dead.

Also, the central American "corn gods" are at least as similar, and I don't think you're seriously suggesting an exchange of ideas with them.

[chequita guevara]

Early Egyptian Christians considered them close enough to worship them together.

[BeBMan]

Osiris

Christ

What else proof do you need?

[Kuciwalker]

Early peasant Christians decided that they could worship the fertility goddesses in a Christian holiday too.

[Nikolai]

Early Egyptian Christians considered them close enough to worship them together.

Source?

[chequita guevara]

Wikipedia

[Elok]

Like Kuci said, that doesn't mean much. Religious syncretism is quite common, and in itself meaningless.

[Nikolai]

Wikipedia

Ah, then it's true.

[Thoth]

An even bigger problem are those that think they are really Christians and then go and have sex with Pandas.

FTFY.

[Straybow]

I guess that was my biggest problem. Some Woman is rambling on about how she lost something and prayed to god to help her find it and when she finds it praises god for helping her. Millions of children are dying from disease and starvation every day and God spent his time helping this woman finding a trinket. So the women claims that finding her trinket is proof that god exists. Hmmmm. If any prayer being answered or any other miracle is proof/reinforcement that God exists, then I refuse to worship a god that will answer those prayers while letting all those children die. What a crappy God.

So please tell me how your faith was supported while more children die.

...But what I can't go along with is the if God has helped anyone in any small manner while ignoring the plight of millions of starving children, his priorities are really really screwed up and is not a God that deserves any of my respect or worship. So anyone that tells me that GOD has stepped in and helped them personally, (not including helped because the person had faith or things like that) then that person should really rethink the whole thing because their god is wacked. Millions of kids starving has very little to do with free will.

Let's examine that argument. God shouldn't do anything, either great or trivial, in anybody's life, as long as kids somewhere in the world are suffering? God is so feeble He can't [handle] both [situations]?

Meanwhile, what have you done for the starving kids? Sent fifty bucks to some charity, or maybe even five hundred? If you really cared about them, you'd be dedicating your resources to saving them. Don't save money for your kids' college, you should be spending it on the starving children instead. There are opportunities for your kids to earn their own way through college, whereas kids in a refugee camp have no resources except what we outsiders give them.

OK, so that argument is a ruse. You just don't like God saying He wants to poke His nose in your business when there are evil bastards out there making those kids suffer. You can live your life just fine without God.

Except God is telling the evil bastards the same thing He tells you: repent of your sin and turn your life to Him. They don't, and make thousands of kids starve. Maybe God's plan is for you to do something about it, and if you don't give your life to Him it doesn't get done. Hypothetically speaking.

Let's turn the argument around. You do give your life to Him, and maybe He doesn't send you to Darfur or wherever. He wants you to stay in Chicago and be a real Christian there to help balance out the Jeremiah Wright quacks. To God, some evil bastard who starves children is not worse than a fake or corrupt or deceived Christian who leads thousands astray in His name. Who knows, maybe someone you influence in Chicago becomes the one who goes to Sudan and makes a difference there.

[Straybow]

Sirotnikov:

Straybow: And conspiracies in which 16 perfectly and uniquely placed people are willing to sacrifice their lives... That's what I call grasping at straws.

There could be a 1000 alternative explanations, including falsification of evidence and things such as rumors, that are far more reasonable than a dead guy coming back to life and ascending to heaven.

Oh, really? 1000 explanations? Rumors and "falsification of evidence" don't work when they've got a body in a guarded tomb to assure everyone Jesus was dead and gone. You still have to account for a body that disappeared, and either the Roman authorities were complicit or somebody pulled off the best organized conspiracy in history. But since there isn't any evidence of either, you don't have a very strong case.

Christianity isn't based on "this is statistically guaranteed" but on "this is what we saw, and heard, and touched."

If you're going to end up foregoing objective standards of analysis and rely on the subjective "it's what about I think I saw and heard" then why do you start an argument pretending you have actual objective evidence of it being true?

I didn't. I said you are misrepresenting the evidence presented. They said Jesus was raised from the dead, and that repentance would give entrance to the new covenant relationship with God. They performed miracles in Jesus' name to back it up. If you have no interest in a relationship with God, He in turn has no interest in "proving" anything to you. He'll let you think you're so brilliant and marvellous for this short lifetime here on earth. Have fun!

If you wanna pretend your evidence is objective - be ready to stand up to scrutiny. Otherwise, admit you believe it based on faith and subjective rationalization. I don't think that's wrong, or makes your faith any less meaningful.

Scrutiny is welcome. But since we can't easily scrutinize Jesus' resurrection 2000 years ago, let's try something more recent. My friend Jen's father was raised from the dead last month.

I didn't know Kurt that well, I had seen him around and only talked with him a few times over the last year. Last month he had an oxycontin OD, a suicide attempt. EMTs couldn't revive him. The hospital got his heart restarted about half an hour after he was found, so he had no oxygen to the brain for that long, plus however long he before he was found. The doctors said it was better to pull the plug since he was thoroughly brain dead. He'd be a total veggie.

My pastor talked to Jen and her sisters in the hospital. He wouldn't even start praying until the doctors and the family were sure there was no hope. "Be glad he's brain dead, because he wasn't using his old brain very well if he ODed on drugs. He needs a new brain. Now it has to be God."

To keep the story short, the next week he's in church, in full health. He's not just "in his right mind," he's better than he was before all this happened. He's better than he was before he started on drugs a few years ago, according to those who knew him back then. You're welcome to come meet him, talk to the witnesses, etc.

I have no problem with God or with people who believe in God. I think it's great and I don't feel dislike towards most religious types.

It's when people come and show off about how their faith can be proven and how everyone ignoring the evidence are fools, immediately followed by presenting silly evidence and enormous logical leaps to support it, that it becomes annoying to me, and embarrassing to watch.

Well, Christianity can be proven. Not in a lab, but anyone who does repent will experience the revelation of God. It is not something to be trifled with; God does not reveal Himself lightly. And He's the one who says they are fools who ignore the evidence.

If you wanna believe - believe. If you wanna pretend you can prove something - you're in for what ever criticism I throw at you.

Your criticism has to pass the same standard. So far it's pretty lame. One down, 999 to go?

[Straybow]

An even bigger problem are those that think they are really christians, go to church every Sunday, and have no clue about love or tolerance, the basic building blocks of their religion.

If you love something, you must hate what opposes and seeks to destroy that which you love. You are under no obligation to tolerate it, either.

[a.kitman]

lol religion

[chequita guevara]

If you love something, you must hate what opposes and seeks to destroy that which you love. You are under no obligation to tolerate it, either.

Hate leads to the dark side.

[Straybow]

Meh. Lucas' theology is weak.