My last thread...

[KrazyHorse]

Those two ifs weren't what you claimed, rah. What you said was:

There is no bilateral gain when you trade money for services that could be provided by your own workforce.

This is what's wrong with the trade debate. "Why should we buy things from other country when there are unemployed people here" is specious yet pervasive reasoning.

[rah]

I claimed earlier that it could be cheaper and higher quality so I assumed I didn't have to repeat it, but obviously I did. And when I have people that need a job, and can do it cheaper and better, it makes absolutely zero sense to outsource it.

You hear companies now switching the term to smart sourcing instead of outsourcing with the difference being do it where it's better and cheaper which doesn't necessarily mean another country.

Get more current.

[onodera]

I have to deal with Indian programmers on a daily basis. They are as bad as you've heard they are.

[Asher]

Can one of you call the other a liar?

[Asher]

I have to deal with Indian programmers on a daily basis. They are as bad as you've heard they are.

That's my experience as well.

Fact: my last company, we had lots of Russians (living in NYC) on the team in addition to an offshore Indian team. The Russians were, by the man, about 5-10x more useful depending on the particular Russian.

Russians are, for whatever reason, very good computer scientists in general.

[KrazyHorse]

I'm just having fun making rah backpedal from his original statement that without exception he complains about Indian call centres.

[Asher]

I'm just having fun making rah backpedal from his original statement that without exception he complains about Indian call centres.

I hate Indian call centers because I find it confusing when I'm on the phone in a cab. I don't know which one is talking to me.

[MOBIUS]

Can one of you call the other a liar?

Yeah, troll is so April 2009...

[onodera]

That's my experience as well.

Fact: my last company, we had lots of Russians (living in NYC) on the team in addition to an offshore Indian team. The Russians were, by the man, about 5-10x more useful depending on the particular Russian.

Russians are, for whatever reason, very good computer scientists in general.

A lot of Russian programmers do not have comp. sci. degrees, but have degrees in physics or maths instead. I guess this could be one of the factors.

[Asher]

A lot of Russian programmers do not have comp. sci. degrees, but have degrees in physics or maths instead. I guess this could be one of the factors.

NO!!!!

physics and maths degrees lead to sloppy, ****ty code. If it's not in Fortran or C, they **** right off.

[Asher]

Oh boy YOU HAVE STRUCK A NERVE. I NEED TO GO COOL OFF.

HONESTLY. MATH AND PHYSICS DEGREE PROGRAMMERS?

[rah]

I have to deal with Indian programmers on a daily basis. They are as bad as you've heard they are.

Don't get me going on that. We have changed greatly on that regard, after using exclusively indian programmers as consultants for over three years we finally had some hard numbers to look at.
SURPRISE, it wasn't cheaper. Communications and quality were big issues. The percentage of redo work was over 66% higher than when our own teams were doing the work. The biggest issue was they would do whatever you told them no matter how stupid it was. And they never asked the right business questions. You're doing market research and they would never ask if no answers should or should not be included in the mean. Then didn't understand the most basic statistical terms. And the time zone difference hampered communications even worse. Now I will admit that if there is a specific well defined simple project, then yes indian programmers could be the right choice. Unfortunately very few of our projects were like that. We have now overhauled how we do it, using a few firms in Mexico where the time zone difference is negliable and communications is considerably better. Since they're closer it's easier to bring them in and give them a better feel for the culture and explain the business needs before they return home to work on the project. We also now use our own project coordinator instead of using the cheaper option of using the consultants coordinators. While it's still not perfect, it is running better. Our IT director that funneled everything to INDIA was given the boot after the final analysis.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I'm just having fun making rah backpedal from his original statement that without exception he complains about Indian call centres.

What's wrong with the original statement? Had there ever been a good Indian call center?

[KrazyHorse]

NO!!!!

physics and maths degrees lead to sloppy, ****ty code. If it's not in Fortran or C, they **** right off.

Sloppy code

Sloppy code with no comments

Sloppy spaghetti fortran code with no comments (my style)

[Asher]

Sloppy code with no comments

At my previous firm, one of the new-hire new-grad developers made a comment within earshot of upper management that the best kind of job security is provided by not commenting one's code. He was fired.