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Socialism No Longer Has Negative Connotation

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  • #31
    Okay lets look at some examples, of what i mean:

    So there is this german woman (forgot her name) who runs a rubber-tire-business (you know, for car´s wheels and such). Just prior to the crises, she grabbed the oppotunity to buy continental (i think it was - excuse me if i mistake A for B here, it doesnt affect the example). She did that at the time, because if she hadnt, someone else would have and it seemed to be a profitable investment. If she didnt buy continental, chances were, that the one buying them would have bought her out in a couple of years as well. She felt she had no real choice (another funny word is ´market-forces´ - like they were comparable in their universal appliance to physical laws). Now desaster strug, car sales plummted and she was, because she had bought continental on credit (of course) in big trouble, immerdiately calling for the gov to bail her out. The whole republic put on a deviois smile, when the gov said ´no´. It´s not like she had shared her profits if the thing had gone alright - so there you go. Competition forced her into her own desaster (and i am ready to bet any ammount of money i posses (about €10 ), she would put it exactly the same way). She´d like to ´unbuy´ (e.g. not sell, but undo the purschase) of it now, but unfortunately she doesnt posses a time-machine. The risk was hers to take (along with the potential profit), not that of the society. Those are the rules of capitalism.

    Arcandor: Expanding like crazy in recent years, they now need €900M and have to sell their unprofitable stuff again. Their original business was being a home-order-shop (lack a better word: Quelle and Karstadt, you recieve a catalogue every quartal and order what you like - they also have houses in major cities from which they directly sell) and only recently they acquired Thomas Cook. Now Thomas Cook is one of the very few examples of a still successfull traditional enterprise - they were actually one of the first travel agency worldwide, being in business for a good 150 years. Of course, again, it was bought on credit and thus, when the crises struck, problems emerged. Arcandor has now announced they want to concentrate in their ´core-business´ - another euphemism, because strangely enough, TC is now part of their ´core-business´. As a side-note they announced they will close about 150 technical support centers in europe - meaning ceasing work-intensive costumer support.

    The TUI is not all that different by the way, having been more than €4B in the minus, by acquisation of various corps alone, a couple of years ago. To top it all off, TC and TUI have been adviced by the same conceling group all the time, being main competitors.

    From all this, it is apparent, that the main actors seem to indeed regard the economy as some sort of monopoly game buying whatever seems profitable, even if that means a huge risk in liquidity - just because if you are not willing to take the risk, someone else is and will render you the looser. If you piece ends up on the most expensive street, you buy it, even if it means you have to take a loan on some of your other streets - you do not really have a choice, cause if you dont buy it, someone else will, and next time you happen to land there, chances are it means ´game over´. Now imagine you wouldnt start monopoly with 30.000 of interest free money, but you´d have to pay a thousand each time you traverse the starting field, as long as you didnt pay back those 30.000 to the bank, instead of getting 4.000 (those were the numbers in the version i used to play as a kid). Things would get pretty tight pretty fast, as you can imagine.

    If capitalism was a game, people would claim, it was bugged to unplayablity, or at least very unbalanced, since in the end everyone will loose (except the bank).

    And we all know, that there is a difference between how things ought to work, and how they actually do work. Right now, there is an investigation on its way, about all the major energy suppliers of Europe being secretly in a cartell, since it seems to be that their prices are just too high. I say, why bother with something like that and not instead just make the energy-supply what it ought to be anyways: A matter of the state.

    To come back to the comparison of capitalistic competition to sports. This is a somewhat legit comparison IMO, especially if you see, how both change their character when they ´grow´ in size. Both, when really small, are not dominant: The players of the soccer club playing in the county league do it mostly for the fun of playing the game and small enterprises are mainained for sustainance and sense of point in life - competition in both cases is in, no doubt, but it doesnt dominate. When both grow, competetion gets more and more important. The soccer club´s players start dreaming of the big money, once they play in 3rd or 2nd national division and your little enterprise starts looking for things like market-share and vertical/horizontal expansion. Let both grow big enough and competition becomes the dominant factor, even in day-to-day business. All of a sudden, games get rigged (enough examples IRL again, recently) and competitors bought out for mere purpose of closing them down, even if they did deliver something very much appreciated by the audience, yet are just too small to compete (see Microsoft in the 90´s). What do we learn from this: Private enterprises should be kept at a medium size, because at one point potential profits just become too huge for any morale to stand against them. We need limits.

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    • #32
      A country where conservative doesn't mean conservative and liberal doesn't mean liberal... yet people use these words to describe themselves. A place where people call a game in which you carry something that isn't a ball in your hands... football! Socialism will pick up more negative connotations on the way to becoming synonymous with fascism.

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      • #33
        ´liberal´ indeed has at least two meanings:

        a) the commonly meant sense: free from oppression in action, word and THOUGHT, open to new ideas, tolerance, acceptance, humanity are close connotation to it.

        b) the Benthamian sense: free of constantly induced oppression, yet having deeply internalised foreign categories and values to a a degree that any oppression is no longer needed in order to make you do exactly what you are supposed to do. The prisoners of a prison guarding each other, with no need for a warden. Claiming tolerance when being totally closed-minded. Insistance on ´common values´ as universal rule. Being theoratically free, but always choosing self-repression for oneself and others. Universal loyal submission to manmade rules, which are perceived as natural law, and thus seem unchangeable and are never questioned. Like a slave accepting his slavehood as being god-given. Not being told what to think, but thinking only one way all the time, for lack of percieved alternatives and calling anyone who does not think that way a liar or plain crazy. 1984 inside one brain.

        I so smiled, when Locke turned to Bentham in ´Lost´, since this is exactly the point of difference between the two liberalisms. At first he chooses to follow the call of the island by free will, but as time goes by, he starts to kill in its name and becomes just as manipulative as Ben Linus is.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Felch View Post
          It's neither socialism nor capitalism. It's corporatism, the economic aspect of fascism.

          Seriously, let's try to use the same words to mean the same things. Capitalism isn't just "whatever Che doesn't like." Capitalism is a specific economic idea supported by the free-market, rule of law, and creative destruction. Fascism may appear similar, but it rejects those three basic pillars. So long as you call everything under the sun "capitalism," you come across as goofy as those Ann Coulters.
          I use the words as they were originally defined, not as libertarians re-defined them.

          Fascism is not something separate from capitalism. It is a form of capitalism.
          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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          • #35
            Rather a stage, Che. Like i said, i would call submission of govs to economic enteties as ´high capitalism´, while Felch calls it ´corpartism - the economic side of fascim´. For me the difference is only in words and getting at it would be nitpicking IMHO.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by chequita guevara View Post
              I use the words as they were originally defined, not as libertarians re-defined them.

              Fascism is not something separate from capitalism. It is a form of capitalism.


              I love it when commies redefine words. Especially when it is try to stretch the English language to make Fascism = capitalism. It's hilarious.

              Especially when they say "originally defined" and failed to realize that Fascism was a very anti-capitalist philosophy.

              Y'all sound like Bill O'Reilly or Hannity.
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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              • #37
                Arguing over the meanings of these terms could go on forever. I support a system that allows individuals to be rewarded based on how well their skills and talents serve others. The reward is determined by those being served, not some beaurocrat, and the government provides a basic regulatory environment.
                ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

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                • #38
                  Fascism's philosophy and fascism's reality are two different things. As a mass movement, it needed to adopt anti capitalist rhetoric in order to win over masses of people who were engaged by capitalism. As a movement in power, however, it did nothing to challenge the rights of capitalists to own their property or extract a profit from it. The fundamental nature of the economic system did no change, and so it was still capitalism.

                  In the same way, European social democracy is not socialism, but merely another form of capitalism.
                  Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                  • #39
                    As a movement in power, it forced its party membership on those who wanted to continue to run industry. Don't tell me that the German fascists allowed Jews to keep their industrial power. Don't tell me that left leaning business owners were ok under Mussolini's state.

                    It's ridiculous.
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                    • #40
                      Crimes against individual members of the capitalist class in no way can be construed as a wholesale attack on capitalism.
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by chequita guevara View Post
                        I use the words as they were originally defined ... Fascism's philosophy and fascism's reality are two different things.
                        I'm using the term as it was originally defined. You're using it as it was defined by Soviet agitprop post-Barbarossa.

                        Remember back in 1940 when the Fascists were your comrades in the struggle against the western imperialists? Of course not. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
                        John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post


                          I love it when commies redefine words. Especially when it is try to stretch the English language to make Fascism = capitalism. It's hilarious.

                          Especially when they say "originally defined" and failed to realize that Fascism was a very anti-capitalist philosophy.

                          Y'all sound like Bill O'Reilly or Hannity.
                          Uh, they're the ones equating our current situation to things like concentration camps, fascism, socialism, and the end of the world.
                          B♭3

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by chequita guevara View Post
                            Crimes against individual members of the capitalist class in no way can be construed as a wholesale attack on capitalism.
                            Of course it can. Because crimes by the state against members because of who they are or believe in is contrary to capitalism.

                            The utter audacity of saying you are using terms as they were originally defined and then defining capitalism as something coming out of a Soviet Union textbook is utterly laughable. And you don't even realize it which is the scary part.
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
                              Of course it can. Because crimes by the state against members because of who they are or believe in is contrary to capitalism.
                              Capitalism has nothing to say about that.
                              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Felch View Post
                                I'm using the term as it was originally defined. You're using it as it was defined by Soviet agitprop post-Barbarossa.

                                Remember back in 1940 when the Fascists were your comrades in the struggle against the western imperialists? Of course not. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
                                As a former Trotskyist, the fascists have never been our comrades. Nor were they the comrades of the Soviets. The Soviets simply needed to buy some time to keep them at bay, since the West refused to sign a defensive treaty with them. The West also sacrificed Spain to fascism, so I wouldn't brag too much if I were you.

                                As to how fascism was defined, while the capitalists were applauding it for saving Italy, the communists were analyzing it and showing it for what it really was. Even before Mussolini claimed that fascism = corporations + government, communists were explaining what it was, and why it was dangerous.
                                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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