Socialism No Longer Has Negative Connotation

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's a theory, which we think best supports the facts.

This would be one of the reasons why most of us don't take you commies seriously.

[chequita guevara]

Go look again at the post with the etymological history of the word.

[BeBMan]

You guys drive me mad with the liberal/libertarian thing

Let's give them more distinctive names.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Go look again at the post with the etymological history of the word.

Which proves... absolutely nothing! Congrats.

Unless you were trying to say that when Marx and Engles and Weber were talking about capitalism they didn't believe it was the system that was discussed and defined by Smith, Ricardo, and co.

[chequita guevara]

No, I'm saying they had the benefit of a hundred years of the further development of capitalism to understand it better.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, I'm saying they had the benefit of a hundred years of the further development of capitalism to understand it better.

Or rather, worse... if you are anything to go by.

[chequita guevara]

[Sandman]

It doesn't mean it isn't, either. Protestantism emerged from Catholicism, that doesn't mean Protestants weren't Christian.

Fascism isn't a different economic system. It is the most extreme, most reactionary form of capitalism. It is capitalism that is a cornered, wounded animal and is attempting to survive by any means necessary.

The absurdities of fascist economics make it a terrible deal for capitalists, so much so that it can hardly be considered capitalist at all. If the survival of capitalism is at stake, social democracy offers a vastly superior alternative.

Mussolini kept the Italian currency artificially high for reasons of 'national virility', ruining the chances of an export-led boom (which occurred after the war). National virility makes perfect sense to a fascist (it is most certainly worth retarding development for), and none whatsoever to a capitalist.

That's far from the only example of fascist economics harming capitalism as a whole.

[chequita guevara]

The absurdities of fascist economics make it a terrible deal for capitalists, so much so that it can hardly be considered capitalist at all. If the survival of capitalism is at stake, social democracy offers a vastly superior alternative.

Mussolini kept the Italian currency artificially high for reasons of 'national virility', ruining the chances of an export-led boom (which occurred after the war). National virility makes perfect sense to a fascist (it is most certainly worth retarding development for), and none whatsoever to a capitalist.

That's far from the only example of fascist economics harming capitalism as a whole.

The fact that a particular form of capitalism might be superior to another form at a given moment in time doesn't mean fascism isn't a form of capitalism. The fact that there are better means of attempting to preserve capitalism doesn't either. It also doesn't mean that social democracy was a better way to preserve capitalism in the 1920s and 30s.

Keep in mind that fascism only appears when three conditions are met: the worker class is militant, organized, and in a mood to overthrow the government and establish socialism; when capitalism is rate of profit is very low; and when the middle classes are being ruined wholesale.

The last two conditions make any move towards a welfare state/social democracy extremely unlikely to happen. If all you can see in front of you is red on your balance sheet and reds on the shop floor, if the Nazis can smash your workers and restore your company to profitability, you probably aren't going to be agreeing to setting up a cradle to grave welfare state any time soon.

It should also be kept in mind that capitalists are not always the best judges of their own interests. The capitalists in the United States have fought tooth and nail to prevent universal health care, and now health care costs are driving them out of business. The housing bubble, definitely not in their interests. Capitalists often engage in short term actions which hurt them in the long run.

[Arrian]

People often engage in short term actions which hurt them in the long run.

Fixed.

-Arrian

[chequita guevara]

One of the beliefs of libertarians is that we all know our own best interest and act accordingly, and that through the myriad interactions of all these people acting in their own best interest, the best interest of humanity will be served as if guided by an invisible hand. I think it's important to stress capitalists when we are talking about capitalism.

[Arrian]

I was just playing around, Che.

-Arrian

[chequita guevara]

I haven't had my morning coffee yet. Don't **** with me.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Kind of silly just to stress capitalists... as an elite in government who are ruling things are short sighted too.

[chequita guevara]

It's not silly if it is seen in its proper context as a response to Sandman's post.