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  • Maternity leave

    One of my coworkers has taken a maternity leave now (well, now now; this post was written back in 2008, and the girs is already 6 m.o. or so), and this made me think again about this concept and the whole controversial practice of hiring future mothers.

    On one hand, this seems fair: a new mother cannot work, so she has to be supported by someone. In our age of family erosion, you cannot guarantee it will be her husband. The father of the child might be a student who needed some money to buy dope 7 years ago so he went and donated sperm. It's only logical that it should be the employer.

    But let's look at it from the other side of the fence now. You are the employer, and you are going to hire a woman who is going to pay more attention to childbearing in the near future. What does this mean for you? This worker might leave your company soon, and convincing her to stay is somewhat immoral: what can you offer a pregnant woman, a fully paid abortion?

    This is already bad enough to avoid hiring her, but look what the state is enforcing: you have to keep her "employed", so after several years of happy childbearing and childrearing she can go back to work in your company. But what if her sphere of competence is volatile, like IT or Russian accounting or taxation? After 3 years, she'll have to relearn a lot, and there's a limit to what you can learn between breastfeedings. Of course, a smart person learns quickly, but there aren't many. I've seen a lot of less than bright people succeed by sheer continious effort. Such a long break can be disastrous for them.

    But not only do you have to keep them "employed", but you have to pay them for their "work" too. So, basically, for at least a year you're going to have an employee who is paid for doing nothing and is not even your mildly distant relative. Even if you can pay less than a full salary, you can still hire an immigrant for that money who will at least do something.

    Firing a woman if she's gotten pregnant seems a natural solution, but the state says you cannot do that. Not hiring her in the first place is also logical, but this means not hiring any woman who's young enough. This is, of course, a sexual discrimination, and the state says you cannot do that either. The only way out is shaping your job requirements to exclude the women without saying you do exactly that. Something like "must have balls to overcome the challenges".

    But let's go back to the other side of the fence. You are a young woman who wants to be financially independent. But no one is willing to hire you, simply because you can have babies. What can you do, have your tubes tied? This will work, but what if you do want to have kids later? Are you stuck with McJobs that need no prior working experience?

    Well, there are other possible solutions:
    1. Have an early child. The financial burden falls on your parents in that case, but by the time you are old enough to find a real job, your child is already old enough to keep your employer happy.

    2. Find a job that makes it possible to work from home. Programming, translating, something like that. The problem is, there aren't enough telejobs for everyone. What if you're an encyclopedia salesman or worse, a factory floor engineer?

    3. Delegate your childrearing duties and return to work as soon as possible. This is probably the most common solution among modern career-conscious women. Some companies even reward women for doing so. It's a good thing if your own mother doesn't work and can look after the child, but what if it's not an option? Not every job pays well enough to let you hire a daytime babysitter, even if she came from Mexico stuffed into a car dashboard.

    4. Promise your employer you will quit instead of taking a leave and start your career again later. This is an acceptable solution only if you have another source of income, like a husband.

    So, what is the net result? Finding a balance between your career and children is hard, and trying to accommodate both is unfair to the employer. But the real result is a decrease in birth rate. 2-3 children per woman are required to maintain the population, but it's hard enough to have a single one if you want to have a career as well. Should we abandon the idea of career-conscious women or at least accept that not every woman will be able to succeed in being both a mother and a professional?
    Graffiti in a public toilet
    Do not require skill or wit
    Among the **** we all are poets
    Among the poets we are ****.

  • #2
    The government should pay at a level that is dependent on the level that she had when she had the child. Also, the government should provide 'schools' going down to age 2-3 instead of just age 5.

    JM
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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    • #3
      Basically, the government already pays at a low level. So someone who works at McDs doesn't face much hardship by having children.

      Someone who is a lawyer on the other hand does.

      Note in my proposal there still would be a large oportunity cost as there would be a number of years where she would not be gaining skills or advancement and she would still have to find a job after the maturnity time.

      JM
      Jon Miller-
      I AM.CANADIAN
      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

      Comment


      • #4
        The rules here are a bit complicated :

        Mother has 4 weeks of pregnancy leave
        After that, 14 weeks of maternity leave
        Daddy has 2 weeks of daddy leave.

        After those 14 weeks, there are a further 32 weeks of leave that the parents can share at will.
        With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

        Steven Weinberg

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post
          The government should pay at a level that is dependent on the level that she had when she had the child. Also, the government should provide 'schools' going down to age 2-3 instead of just age 5.

          JM
          So you're in favour of regressive transfers to people who choose to become mothers?
          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
          Stadtluft Macht Frei
          Killing it is the new killing it
          Ultima Ratio Regum

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          • #6
            Asher is so going to blow this thread to pieces...
            You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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            • #7
              I hate the idea that the government needs to step in and subsidize the production of children.

              What a load of nonsense.

              The US has some of the lowest governmental benefits to parents in the developed world, yet one of the highest birthrates. If anything, poverty leads to children, not wealth.
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

              Comment


              • #8
                Devil makes work for idle hands...
                You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
                  I hate the idea that the government needs to step in and subsidize the production of children.

                  What a load of nonsense.

                  The US has some of the lowest governmental benefits to parents in the developed world, yet one of the highest birthrates. If anything, poverty leads to children, not wealth.
                  I take it you are not a fan of the Canadian system where the employment insurance system (EI) pays during maternity periods.
                  (\__/)
                  (='.'=)
                  (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
                    If anything, poverty leads to children, not wealth.
                    I hope that you are aware of the risk that Ben will consider you a danger to humanity for claiming such ?
                    With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                    Steven Weinberg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It's in the interests of everyone that people continue having children.
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                      • #12
                        Yeah, if it's in the range of 2 - 3 it's ok, but beyond that, it's just pouring gasoline on the fire.
                        With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                        Steven Weinberg

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KrazyHorse View Post
                          So you're in favour of regressive transfers to people who choose to become mothers?
                          I am in favor of more kids.

                          I don't care whether they are the kids of poor people or the kids of rich people.

                          Currently, the way that society is set up (materialistic, flat benefit to those who have kids) it favors poor people having more kids and rich people having less (or none).

                          JM
                          Jon Miller-
                          I AM.CANADIAN
                          GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post
                            I am in favor of more kids.

                            JM
                            Why ? What this planet needs is to get rid of some 3-4 billon people.
                            With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                            Steven Weinberg

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BlackCat View Post
                              Why ? What this planet needs is to get rid of some 3-4 billon people.
                              this is possibly the best post i have ever seen you write.
                              The Wizard of AAHZ

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