Maternity leave

[Jon Miller]

If there is no middle class, and you have either poor lifestyle or the very wealthy lifestyle available... and it takes a lot of luck to become wealthy from poor... you will be negatively effected/etc.

WTF? Why would the poor stay poor? Why wouldn't they create their own middle class?

You are making it more difficult to get into the middle class, by putting a greater cost on the poor.

Now if you give some sort of large wealth transfer, then things might be different.

With the current system, it would decrease the middle class.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Professors are ALREADY dependent on tuition from students.

I and my professors have failed a number of physics/engineering/premed type students. In my undergrad 1/4 of the physics students failed the 2nd year.

JM

[KrazyHorse]

Also, note that if the overall economy is smaller, then there is less opportunities to make money. You can't say there will be the same return on other jobs when there are less people with money to buy things.

So by dropping the total nation product, the average marginal income of everyone else will drop due to scales/etc. More than just the marginal income of the indvidual needs to be considered.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. You're taking as a given PRECISELY what is up for debate: whether there is a net positive or negative externality to each additional child. More people means that the market is bigger, which means that there are higher returns to innovation. More people ALSO mean that there is less in the way of natural inputs (land, water, metals, oil) which means that returns to labour and capital are both lower.

[KrazyHorse]

You are making it more difficult to get into the middle class, by putting a greater cost on the poor.

????

[KrazyHorse]

I and my professors have failed a number of physics/engineering/premed type students.

JM

This is my point, Jon. Or are you honestly incapable of seeing why this fact argues against your statement

Additionally, there will be a strong reason for professors/etc to pass people because money is involved, unlike currently where it is (generally) removed from the grading decisions.

[Jon Miller]

You are making it more difficult to get into the middle class, by putting a greater cost on the poor.

????

Let's say I start out poor. If I have to pay for my own education (since my parents can not), then it is an additional barrier for me to move to middle class.

JM

[Jon Miller]

This is my point, Jon. Or are you honestly incapable of seeing why this fact argues against your statement

Additionally, there will be a strong reason for professors/etc to pass people because money is involved, unlike currently where it is (generally) removed from the grading decisions.

I never felt that I needed to pass people because money was involved. So I could fail people as I felt they needed to be failed.

So currently money is removed from the grading decision for me (and most (?) of the profs I have worked for).

So yeah, I do fail to see why me failing people due to reasons independent to money that that student brought into the university means that my statement that money is not a part of the decisions to fail people is incorrect.

JM

[KrazyHorse]

Errr.....what?

Why would it start being part of the grading decision JUST BECAUSE THE STUDENTS PAY TUITION?

[KrazyHorse]

Let's say I start out poor. If I have to pay for my own education (since my parents can not), then it is an additional barrier for me to move to middle class.

JM

So why should we encourage your parents to have kids?

[BlackCat]

So why should we encourage your parents to have kids?

KH, if you think that society isn't the winner by paying for education, then you are pretty stupid.

[KrazyHorse]

Really? Provide me some numbers. I've given a reference that demonstrates that the total social returns to education are VERY low.

[notyoueither]

I would think there is more to 'social returns' than cash.

[BlackCat]

Really? Provide me some numbers. I've given a reference that demonstrates that the total social returns to education are VERY low.

I don't hope that you are referring to :

http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2005/02/welfare_states_.html

That is one of the most lame arguments that you have ever made

[Jon Miller]

Errr.....what?

Why would it start being part of the grading decision JUST BECAUSE THE STUDENTS PAY TUITION?

Not just because the students pay tuition. But if it becomes true that the tuition costs/etc were on the level of the pay scale involved.

Someone who is paying nothing or just a few thousand isn't going to try and bribe thousands to get a good grade. Someone who is paying 200+ thousand might (Rather than fail, and see a lot of that money wasted).

JM

[KrazyHorse]

I would think there is more to 'social returns' than cash.

Such as?