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  • Zombie Bride of Stimulus Thread

    Darius:

    Ok I was mistaken - instead of including the "inevitable" earmarks in the controversial stimulus bill, they instead "saved" them for almost surreptitious insertion into a catch-all spending bill just one week later, which is effectively one half of the same measure as far as I'm concerned. But I suppose that has no bearing on what his comment implied, right? Or is it A-OK that these are "only" a $3.8B drop in the bucket? Even if he was just gloating, I still fail to see why it's so hard for him to just say "no earmarks, period" and stick with it. It's not like Congress is in a position to bully him around.

    House Democrats propose $410B spending bill
    House bill to keep govt. running totals $410 billion, features thousands of pet projects
    David Espo, AP Special Correspondent
    Tuesday February 24, 2009, 8:50 am EST

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- House Democrats unveiled a $410 billion spending bill on Monday to keep the government running through the end of the fiscal year, setting up the second political struggle over federal funds in less than a month with Republicans.

    The measure includes thousands of earmarks, the pet projects favored by lawmakers but often criticized by the public in opinion polls. There was no official total of the bill's earmarks, which accounted for at least $3.8 billion.

    The legislation, which includes an increase of roughly 8 percent over spending in the last fiscal year, is expected to clear the House later in the week.

    Democrats defended the spending increases, saying they were needed to make up for cuts enacted in recent years or proposed a year ago by then-President George W. Bush in health, education, energy and other programs.

    Republicans countered that the spending in the bill far outpaced inflation, and amounted to much higher increases when combined with spending in the stimulus legislation that President Barack Obama signed last week. In a letter to top Democratic leaders, the GOP leadership called for a spending freeze, a step they said would point toward a "new standard of fiscal discipline."

    Either way, the bill advanced less than one week after Obama signed the $787 billion economic stimulus bill that all Republicans in Congress opposed except for three moderate GOP senators.



    That's an appropriations bill to fund the various agencies in the federal government - something that happens basically every year (though sometims Congress can't get its act together). If Congress is able to, it gets together a budget for federal appropriations. If the President vetoes it (or threatens to veto it), Congress funds the government through a "continuing resolution," which sets appropriations at last years rates (and in some cases, lower). That happened last year. This resolution expires next week, so it's being replaced by what Congress tried to pass last year. This is not a stimulus.

    The stimulus bill is a specific piece of legislation that was signed into law last week. It is not this approprations bill. It is not Lily Ledbetter. It is not SCHIP. It is not the commemoration of Black History Month.
    So yes, you are still mistaken.

    And to be clear, I don't give a **** about earmarks. To see why I don't, look at the proportion of this bill they occupy. I was correcting a factual error that Dino and a lot of Republicans - who supposedly do care about earmarks - have frequently made about the stimulus legislation.

    To summarize, if you're going to criticize the stimulus (and there is plenty to criticize), don't make up bull**** complaints about earmarks. And if there are earmarks in a completely unrelated piece of legislation, that doesn't make your complaint any more reasonable. You can complain about that piece of legislation if you'd like.
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

  • #2
    Honestly, if earmarks are only ~1% of spending I have no problem with that... that's probably a reasonable level. Heck, I'd be okay with ~3% probably.
    <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
    I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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    • #3
      I think the President is going to announce tonight the nationalization of the banks. Maybe he let some of the boys stick a little fat in this bill to assure their vote on that one. At least I hope so. Otherwise I agree with you, no stinking earmarks period.
      No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
      "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

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      • #4
        The problem with earmarks is not the proportion of spending that they occupy. The problem with earmarks is that they're really campaign contributions to incumbent legislators.

        Comment


        • #5
          Take away earmarks, and the contributions just get more costly. Instead of building a few post offices in a district to get a legislator's vote, you have to bribe them with a much larger program that spans multiple congressional districts just so it can't be identified as an earmark.
          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
          -Bokonon

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          • #6
            Again, the problem isn't the price. The problem is that legislators consider it acceptable to allocate money out of the federal budget to their reelection campaigns, and there's nothing to stop them. It becomes even more of a problem because more senior legislators have even more power to protect themselves.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post
              Again, the problem isn't the price. The problem is that legislators consider it acceptable to allocate money out of the federal budget to their reelection campaigns, and there's nothing to stop them. It becomes even more of a problem because more senior legislators have even more power to protect themselves.
              That's part of the price of using the current system instead of a Proportional Representation system with lists drawn up by the party. There's also benefits, mind you.
              "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
              -Joan Robinson

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              • #8
                Again, the problem isn't the price. The problem is that legislators consider it acceptable to allocate money out of the federal budget to their reelection campaigns, and there's nothing to stop them. It becomes even more of a problem because more senior legislators have even more power to protect themselves.


                From a national perspective, the problem is price. To get the legislative quid pro quos that makes government work, it would take a lot more quid. And that genuinely would be a problem. The stimulus would've been far better if Specter were bought off by more cash to Philly transit, and Collins, Snowe, and Nelson were bought off by some dairy subsidies instead of spending $70 billion on the AMT fix.

                As I was saying, you'd just get more expensive "campaign contributions." Instead of building a military base in your district, you can get press for helping to increase military funding by 10%.

                There are more cost effective ways to level electoral playing fields. Say, public financing of congressional elections. Or for free, changing seniority rules.
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

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                • #9
                  Frankly, I don't have a problem with 1% to 3% of the budget going to programs in the congressional district. I disagree with you that all of them are effectively payoffs to their buddies. Some certainly are, but probably not the majority. Just like steroids in baseball... it's easy to say "oh baseball players, they're all on steroids", but the real number is probably just 5%-10%.

                  In any event, cut that out in some other measure... there needs to be a method of funding small local projects [if the FG is going to exist in the manner it does now and not revert back to the more libertarian structure of days gone by], so I'm not sure you can really properly eliminate earmarks in one form or another... and taking this away opens the door (as Ramo notes) to just hiding it somewhere more thoroughly. The devil you know...
                  <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                  I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ramo View Post
                    That's an appropriations bill to fund the various agencies in the federal government - something that happens basically every year (though sometims Congress can't get its act together). If Congress is able to, it gets together a budget for federal appropriations. If the President vetoes it (or threatens to veto it), Congress funds the government through a "continuing resolution," which sets appropriations at last years rates (and in some cases, lower). That happened last year. This resolution expires next week, so it's being replaced by what Congress tried to pass last year. This is not a stimulus.

                    The stimulus bill is a specific piece of legislation that was signed into law last week. It is not this approprations bill. It is not Lily Ledbetter. It is not SCHIP. It is not the commemoration of Black History Month.

                    I know, just thought I'd have some fun with you.

                    Originally posted by Ramo View Post
                    And to be clear, I don't give a **** about earmarks. To see why I don't, look at the proportion of this bill they occupy. I was correcting a factual error that Dino and a lot of Republicans - who supposedly do care about earmarks - have frequently made about the stimulus legislation.

                    To summarize, if you're going to criticize the stimulus (and there is plenty to criticize), don't make up bull**** complaints about earmarks. And if there are earmarks in a completely unrelated piece of legislation, that doesn't make your complaint any more reasonable. You can complain about that piece of legislation if you'd like.

                    I don't recall ever complaining about earmarks, though DD has. We're talking about 0.9% here. I just enjoyed semantic trolling about that AP quote, which is clearly a dead horse at this point.

                    But yes, if I were in Obama's shoes I'd dump even that "miniscule" 0.9% anyway, if for no other reason than as a meaningless theatrical gesture, which we already know from Gitmo etc. to be his forte. There's nothing whatsoever to lose aside from ruffling the feathers of a few old-guard Congressmen who have little choice but to defer to his bully pulpit whether they get earmarks or not.

                    Nothing to lose, and meanwhile the gain is ending a practice which, while small in hard dollars, is emblematic of the quid pro quo Washington politics as usual that he's supposed to be demolishing in all too hopeychangey fashion.
                    Last edited by Darius871; February 24, 2009, 19:24.
                    Unbelievable!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by snoopy369 View Post
                      Frankly, I don't have a problem with 1% to 3% of the budget going to programs in the congressional district. I disagree with you that all of them are effectively payoffs to their buddies. Some certainly are, but probably not the majority. Just like steroids in baseball... it's easy to say "oh baseball players, they're all on steroids", but the real number is probably just 5%-10%.
                      I don't think you understand. The reason these are campaign contributions is not because they go to Congresscritters' friends, but because they let the incumbent say "look at what I did for our district!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh, I understand that concept perfectly (just not your specific problem with it). I have no problem with those. That is, after all, the purpose of the congressman (to represent the wishes of the people of that district). Of course they wish projects in their district... For so long as you have direct representation, you will have congressmen who attempt to get reelected based on projects earned for their district. What other criteria exactly are people going to vote based on? Good governance?

                        I have a problem with the people who get projects for their FRIENDS and SUPPORTERS directly, ie the Rod Blagojevichs of Congress. And you know there are some. I thought that was your objection.
                        <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                        I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I just enjoyed semantic trolling about that AP quote, which is clearly a dead horse at this point.


                          That was a pretty crappy "troll."


                          Nothing to lose, and meanwhile the gain is ending a practice which, while small in hard dollars, is emblematic of the quid pro quo Washington politics as usual that he's supposed to be demolishing in all too hopeychangey fashion.


                          No one gives a **** about this piece of legislation. Googoo kabuki only matters if people are paying attention.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ramo View Post
                            That was a pretty crappy "troll."
                            Nobody said it has to be amusing to anybody other than the perpetrator.
                            Unbelievable!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              There's a lot more earmarks out there than you think, and I know because I've been chasing the critters for the last couple months.

                              A couple years ago the Department of Transportation's Office of the Inspector General found that about 15% of all spending in the Department of Transportation was earmarked. In some agencies, such as the Federal Transit Administration, the percentage of earmarks was as high as 28%. These are generally projects that have not gone through the review or evaluation process at the state level.



                              Then you throw in the fact that the federal government does not fund the entire project. If the states don't put up their 10-50% share of the project, they lose the federal money. This further increases magnitude of earmarks.

                              And here's another cute trick you can use. Just put some text in the bill saying "Congress will follow the recommendations of the National Transportation Policy and Revenue Study Commission", put the earmarks in that study, and voila, 79 mph rail service to Duluth Minnesota without one thin dime counted as an earmark.
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