Iranians in Space

[Alinestra Covelia]

The thread title is fun but not quite as catchy as "Jews In Space" by Mel Brooks.

[Unimatrix11]

So, how is the president of the federal republic of germany elected, patroklos? I am not saying he wasnt, but i doubt you know the modus from your statement. As most germans dont even know the modus and even i´d be hard pressed to give an accurate description without any further research. One half of the electorate consists, AFAIK, out of ´congressmen´ if you want to call them that (members of the bundestag and the bundesrat). The other half are ´honored members´ of society, who get called up to the electorate, by parliament, i guess, but i dont know actually. Some of those can very well be bishops or whatnot. But they can as well be industrial tycoons. And thats the main difference. In Iran they are all ´bishops´ and tycoons are not allowed.

Anyways, i doubt that the pressure on Iran is applied to it, because of the magnitude of democracy it´s regime may or may not lack, but much more because of economic interests. People with some historic background will find it hard to believe the pretext of ´bringing democracy´. No one in the US, or elsewhere in the world, with much to say, except for in Iran, does give a **** wether Iran is democratic or not. What matters is wether you can do business with them on your terms. If they deny you that, they are enemies.

And what i really cant stand is this hypocritical way of arguing freedom in a liberal fashion, as some exercise, when they say, that if the US or any other country doesnt want the Iran to have nukes, they have every (moral) right to stop them, but if Iran persues this, it does not enjoy the same ´freedom´. ´Freedom´ and ´Power´ (or ´Ability´, ´strength´) are two terms often confused these days. Freedom is, when you can do whatever you like, without taking the same freedom from other people. Power is, when you can do something, someone else cant do. So which ideal does it follow, when one side tries to deny to do what they have done before (and which is base of them doing that)? If the US (or any other country if it would serve as an accurate historic example) didnt want other countries to develope nukes, from a moral point of view, it shouldnt have developed them in the first place, if what it wants to stand for is freedom. Because if it did, what it didnt want others to do, it acted against the first principle of freedom. In the way, the first bombs were researched and produced, as a cooperation between the US and the UK, it becomes apparent which people were regarded as free and thus could be part of that freedom. Because there is a ligit point in saying, that you can only share freedom (in an international sense) with a free people. To not call the Iranians a free people, when they live under a system, that is a) the result of a popular revolution and b) in wide parts democratic is just a little far fetched IMO. They may have a layer more to their governmental system and it may not be 100% secularized as the western ones, but yet, if that´s the form of self-determination they chose (one which conciuously puts a limit to popularity overriding morality), it´s an expression of their inner freedom.

EDIT: I must also critizise the stick-and-carrot allegory that snoopy used. That picture is obviously derived from making a donkey pull a cart or something. Look, Iran is not a donkey, it´s a farmer like you. It´s equal. You dont go visiting a friend with a stick in one hand and a carrot in the other... - okay maybe you do that when you go visiting a business-partner, but that just shows, why the Iran may not want to become like us...

[Naked Gents Rut]

And NYC

Taepodong-2 doesn't have the range to hit NYC.

[Patroklos]

So, how is the president of the federal republic of germany elected, patroklos?

He is ELECTED by secret ballot in a special convention made up of ELECTED members of the Bundestag and delegates chosen by ELECTED legislatures in the Lander.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Paddy Ashdown of the Liberal Democrats once got some party political TV time on Channel 4's "Comment" program. In it he got as far as saying "In the next general erection" and then he immediately noticed his mistake and burst out laughing.

I was too young to vote but I was not too young to know what a general erection was. I would have voted for him though.

[Unimatrix11]

Why not directly by the people, as that would, without doubt, be the most democratic way, Patroklos?

[Patroklos]

Why not directly by the people, as that would, without doubt, be the most democratic way, Patroklos?

Irrelevant. Are you are are you not going to admit now that Iran is in no way, shape or form a democracy? Until you do this there is no point in entertaining anything else you say on the topic.

[SpencerH]

IMO, its a troubling but not unexpected development. Despite its oil money, Iran is not a "1st world country". One only need to ask why would such a country need to send satelites into orbit. The answer is that it doesnt. These missiles are weapons delivery systems and nothing else.

For now, Iran is held in check, to some extent, by fear of military retaliation. That is especially true since after the obliteration of the Iraqi military they have no misunderstandings that we can do so (in days). No country, however, will risk nuclear war over Iranian support of violent jihadist revolutions in other countries. Once Iran has developed a nuke in conjunction with a ballistic missile it will be virtually untouchable. We will be back to the bad old days of the East-West cold war.

[Patroklos]

I am not saying he wasnt, but i doubt you know the modus from your statement....blah blah blah

For the love of god Uni, that has to be the longest and worst attempted DanS ever. How the hell are you going to edit your comment to say I don't know the way the President of Germany is elected AFTER I post exactly how he is elected?

There is only one thing that is important to note about your comparison between the German President and the Iranian Supreme Council. The first is elected, the other is not.

other half are ´honored members´ of society, who get called up to the electorate, by parliament, i guess, but i dont know actually. Some of those can very well be bishops or whatnot. But they can as well be industrial tycoons. And thats the main difference. In Iran they are all ´bishops´ and tycoons are not allowed.

No that is not the difference. The half of the convention picked by the Lander are done so by ELECTED legislature members. These people serve at the pleasure of the ELECTED representatives just as any executive member of the US government does. They are far more likely to be artists/celebrities/social warriors/just really nice locally popular people than they are to respectable buisnessmen. That is still democracy.

The Iranian Supreme Council, on the other hand, picks its own members and are themselves not elected. It is basically a plural dictatorship. Furthermore, only people with their blessing get to run for positions offered in elections, surely you can see yourself how that is not democracy.

Anyways, i doubt that the pressure on Iran is applied to it, because of the magnitude of democracy it´s regime may or may not lack, but much more because of economic interests.

You think countries are santioning Iran because of their own economic interests? Name one Western ecomomic interest that is served by resticting access to the Iranian economy. One.

At the current time santions continue to be leveled against Iran because it is a state sponsor of terror, which of course makes any efforts do do things like develope nukes suspect.

And what i really cant stand is this hypocritical way of arguing freedom in a liberal fashion, as some exercise, when they say, that if the US or any other country doesnt want the Iran to have nukes, they have every (moral) right to stop them, but if Iran persues this, it does not enjoy the same ´freedom´.

Iran does not have the freedom to develope nukes because they decided decades ago and to continue to exercise the freedom to sponsor terrorism via the Iranian government. Period.

EDIT: I must also critizise the stick-and-carrot allegory that snoopy used. That picture is obviously derived from making a donkey pull a cart or something. Look, Iran is not a donkey, it´s a farmer like you. It´s equal. You dont go visiting a friend with a stick in one hand and a carrot in the other... - okay maybe you do that when you go visiting a business-partner, but that just shows, why the Iran may not want to become like us...

Are you serious?

[Ramo]

The Iranian Supreme Council, on the other hand, picks its own members and are themselves not elected.

That's not true. The Assembly of Experts is an elected body.

[Ramo]

.

[Patroklos]

Just because it is elected does not make it democratic. All candidates for the Council of Experts are run at the pleasure of the current government. In other words it is a farce just like every other trapping of democracy Iran pretends matters.

[DinoDoc]

Does anyone seriously give a **** where Iran falls under a democracy vs not democracy scale? It's not as if the arbitrary distinction in light of the other behavior (sponsoring terrorism. etc.) will suddenly make thier nuclear weapons program and the fact they just tested an ICBM easier to stomach for the West.

[Ramo]

Just because it is elected does not make it democratic. All candidates for the Council of Experts are run at the pleasure of the current government. In other words it is a farce just like every other trapping of democracy Iran pretends matters.

I don't entirely disagree with the sentiment, but what you said is factually incorrect.

[Blaupanzer]

The thread title is fun but not quite as catchy as "Jews In Space" by Mel Brooks.

I thought the same upon seeing the title.

Since launching a vehicle into space is not regarded as an act of war, I was very surprised to find a cliche ridden discussion of war between Iran and the rest of the world. The religious leaders of Iran do not desire to destroy or conquer the world. They are most definitely not a "suicide cult."

Hamas is the org elected to rule Gaza (and the West Bank, IIRC) and Hezbollah is a very popular political faction in Lebanon. We may well have to exterminate both of them in support of our friend Israel, but we overrely on the words "terrorist group." Al Qaida is a terrorist group, entirely without credible political support and advocating destruction in the name of the return of a "Caliph" that no one else wants to even consider. Ham/Hem/Taliban are real political organizations who stand for principles that many Western states reject. They are not just devoted to destruction.