Ron Paul: Stimulus Packages Will Turn Recession Into A Depression

[Whoha]

Hmm it looks like the Buy American Provisions were put back in.

[Naked Gents Rut]

We'll be discovering terrible provisions in the stimulus bill for months to come.

[Whoha]

Calm yourself, it all depends on effective enforcement by Obama, and not just passing out wavers left and right.

[Naked Gents Rut]

What reason do I have to think Obama can stand up to his own party?

[Darius871]

Frank Rich is either disingenuous or an idiot. Nobody I read or listen to in the conservative media thought the Republicans could block it.

Where did he say that?

TMM didn't say Rich said that. He said Rich attributed that to conservative media. Rich's paraphrasing makes that premise obvious:

Obama couldn’t possibly eke out a victory because the stimulus package was “a steaming pile of garbage.” (emphasis added)

Of course, almost nobody on the left or right supposed that Obama needed the GOP to pass the bill, so suggesting they were proven wrong by the party-line vote is a ridiculous strawman fallacy. The only thing some viewed as a "failure" on Obama's part was not living up to the bipartisan approach that his campaign rhetoric [supposedly] promised.

Personally I think some combination of the GOP's intransigence and Congressional Democrats' sense of urgency had far more to do with this result than anything Obama did, and I don't think some broad rhetoric about a new way of doing things in Washington was somehow a promise to spinelessly give in to any GOP demands, so it's hard to see where he failed in any way, but that doesn't make Rich's straw-man argument any less silly.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Reading Rich for a while, I can say that he is both, disingenuous and an idiot.

Contrast him to Ezra Klein, who says if he was a Republican, HE would vote against the stimulus package as that is the sane political option for the GOP at this point.

[Ramo]

It was the sane option from a political context (collectively, not necessarily individually). I should add the sane option for the Dems was to not make bull**** pre-emptive concessions in the futile pursuit of 80 votes in the Senate. Too bad that didn't happen.

[DaShi]

TMM didn't say Rich said that. He said Rich attributed that to conservative media. Rich's paraphrasing makes that premise obvious:

Obama couldn’t possibly eke out a victory because the stimulus package was “a steaming pile of garbage.” (emphasis added)

But he didn't attribute this to conservative media. Where did he?

Of course, almost nobody on the left or right supposed that Obama needed the GOP to pass the bill, so suggesting they were proven wrong by the party-line vote is a ridiculous strawman fallacy. The only thing some viewed as a "failure" on Obama's part was not living up to the bipartisan approach that his campaign rhetoric [supposedly] promised.

I'd argue that this isn't even the argument that Frank Rich is talking about. So far it's just something TMM made up. Where is the evidence? That ONE line doesn't say anything like you are claiming. Talk about disingenuous. Seems more like you just don't like what he's saying.

[DaShi]

Reading Rich for a while, I can say that he is both, disingenuous and an idiot.

Where? This is a very Ben-like response from you.

[DaShi]

Anyway, I posted the article for one reason really, which I bolded and Drake so promptly provided an immediate example of, so you don't need to trudge through the rest of thread reading through the hundreds more.

The rest is just whinging. Another GOP trait. Go figure.

Now scurry to save your egos!

[Darius871]

But he didn't attribute this to conservative media. Where did he?

I'd argue that this isn't even the argument that Frank Rich is talking about. So far it's just something TMM made up. Where is the evidence? That ONE line doesn't say anything like you are claiming. Talk about disingenuous. Seems more like you just don't like what he's saying.

That's the impression I got from his paraphrase suggesting that Joe Scarborough - a right-wing talking head - believed "Obama couldn't possibly eke out a victory." But since he also mentioned Newsweek and Politico in the same paragraph - both [at least ostensibly] neutral - I'll give you that TMM would have been more accurate with "the media" than "conservative media."

However, the basic point still stands: Rich quotes nobody actually suggesting "Obama couldn’t possibly eke out a victory." Of course the bill could have been passed two weeks ago on a sliver platter through a party-line vote, meaning anybody who speaks of "failure" on Obama's part is only referring to the perception that he'd promised a bipartisan approach and failed to deliver to that extent (even though bipartisanship would be superfluous in my opinion anyway, and would weaken the bill for no gain as Ramo mentioned). If you can quote me some serious commentators' opinion that Obama needed GOP support to pass the stimulus, then Rich wasn't beating on a straw man and I'll gladly eat my hat.

[DaShi]

That's the impression I got from his paraphrase suggesting that Joe Scarborough - a right-wing talking head - believed "Obama couldn't possibly eke out a victory." But since he also mentioned Newsweek and Politico in the same paragraph - both [at least ostensibly] neutral - I'll give you that TMM would have been more accurate with "the media" than "conservative media."

However, the basic point still stands: Rich quotes nobody actually suggesting "Obama couldn’t possibly eke out a victory." Of course the bill could have been passed two weeks ago with a party-line vote, meaning anybody who speaks of "failure" on Obama's part is only referring to the perception that he'd promised a bipartisan approach and failed to deliver to that extent (even though bipartisanship would be superfluous in my opinion anyway, and would weaken the bill for no gain as Ramo mentioned). If you can quote me some serious commentators' opinion that Obama needed GOP support to pass the stimulus, I'll gladly eat my hat.

Actually, his first few quotes showed that. Your own argument contradicts itself. Why not talk about what is actually written and being talked about, rather than Ben an argument with something else? Your last line borders on absurdism.



Of course, now I see where all this is coming from: "congressional conservatives have continued to attack the stimulus plan with a series of false and disingenuous arguments."

Is there a "mother brain" that tells you all how to think?


Next.

[Darius871]

Is there a "mother brain" that tells you all how to think?

I still find it hilarious that in every thread you assume I'm a conservative. When it comes to policy I'm certainly to the left of Obama and probably to the left of you. It's just that this doesn't stop me from getting annoyed by Rich defending him against criticisms that aren't even being made.

[DaShi]

Darius, I just calls them as I sees them.

[The Mad Monk]

DaShi, Im sorry. I know you miss your Ben, but...I'm not Ben. I can never be Ben, not for you, not for anyone. You must find another Ben. Be well.