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  • #16
    I didn't support GW I. But the need for nationbuilding was a natural consequence of the war.

    Bush the elder thought that he could have a nice little war, the impact from which was contained by diplomatic maneuvering. But I don't think wars work that way.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DanS


      Something close to it. Iraq was broken in GW I, so, as Colin Powell would say, we owned the place.
      Again, nonsense.


      Firstly, containment could have continued indefinitely. Perpetual containment cost was far lower than the cost of GWII under any reasonable discount rate.

      Secondly, what would have happened if the US had simply given up on active containment? Do you really think that the cost of this would be higher than the cost of GWII?
      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
      Stadtluft Macht Frei
      Killing it is the new killing it
      Ultima Ratio Regum

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      • #18
        Millions of Americans oppose higher taxes meant to fund "betterment programs", when it is not immediately clear that those programs will make anything better for the average American. It is, though, immediately clear that higher taxes will hit us where it hurts the most right now.
        Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
        Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KrazyHorse
          Firstly, containment could have continued indefinitely.
          The containment policy was dead. Nobody was supporting it.
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

          Comment

          • #20
            How was containment dead?

            What had Iraq done which broke the goals of containment?
            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
            Stadtluft Macht Frei
            Killing it is the new killing it
            Ultima Ratio Regum

            Comment

            • #21
              Nobody was supporting it? What does that mean?

              What was the coming crisis due to "lack of support" which justifies a trillion + price tag?
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

              Comment

              • #22
                Basically you have to demonstrate that:

                a) Iraq was going to manage to break containment in some way
                b) The negative consequences of this would outweigh the costs of GWII
                12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                Stadtluft Macht Frei
                Killing it is the new killing it
                Ultima Ratio Regum

                Comment

                • #23
                  No, that's not at all true. Realpolitik doesn't make me tick. The US had a moral obligation to Iraq once we broke the country.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DanS
                    I didn't support GW I. But the need for nationbuilding was a natural consequence of the war.

                    Bush the elder thought that he could have a nice little war, the impact from which was contained by diplomatic maneuvering. But I don't think wars work that way.
                    Interesting. I was too young to have much of an opinion on GWI. Looking back... well, perhaps we shouldn't have played World Cop.

                    The worry at the time, as I recall, was Saddam deciding he'd like Saudi Arabia too. Thinking about that now... it doesn't seem all that plausible to me. What does seem plausible is that the Bushes and the House of Saud are tight, yo. So it was time to smack Saddam down. Hmm...

                    I still don't buy that GWI leads inevitably to GWII. The containment scheme worked, though it was tottering in the 21st century. Ok... option B is to simply drop the sanctions, the no-fly zone, etc. and tell Saddam to behave or we squash him again (this time for real). I take it you find that course unacceptable?

                    -Arrian
                    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      Originally posted by SlowwHand
                      Why not throw "Give me head" Clinton in there?
                      He shut down bases and ignored all for 8 years.
                      Anything will cost more than nothing.
                      What, did you decide to just make things up? You, yourself, were yelling about Kosovo and such when he was in. He did not do "nothing." But, like Bush's father he knew better than to take out the primary bulwark against Iran in the Middle East. Also, note the Defense budgets under Clinton. All that stuff that Bush and Cheney threw away in the Middle East to bring peace to a place that was at peace before they got there was all built on Clinton's watch.

                      Clinton lied about sex, he did not lie about WMD. I don't care about other people's sex; I do care about spending $billions and American lives pursuing something that the Commander-in-chief knew was not there right from the start.
                      No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
                      "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

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                      • #26
                        Dan

                        So what is your claim? How the hell was the invasion of Iraq inevitable?
                        12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                        Stadtluft Macht Frei
                        Killing it is the new killing it
                        Ultima Ratio Regum

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          The US had a moral obligation to Iraq once we broke the country.
                          How very liberal of you. So you are into nationbuilding...

                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            Because what it sounds like you're saying is:

                            "We left Iraq in a suspended state after GWI. Not much happened for 12 years, but eventually somebody was going to be dumb enough to go finish it off. Therefore GWII was inevitable"
                            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                            Stadtluft Macht Frei
                            Killing it is the new killing it
                            Ultima Ratio Regum

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              Damnit, Dan. Stop DanSing
                              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                              Stadtluft Macht Frei
                              Killing it is the new killing it
                              Ultima Ratio Regum

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Arrian
                                How very liberal of you. So you are into nationbuilding...
                                No, I would say that we should avoid putting ourselves in such situations. But once you're in these situations, you've got to man up.
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                                Comment

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