Catholicism and Voting

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by MrFun
So if one wants to be a Catholic then that person needs to surrender their right to vote and simply vote the same as everyone else in the congregation without thinking for oneself.

No, vote the same as the guy in Rome with the big hat would. I think it is hard to consider yourself a true Catholic if you really don't care what the Pope has to say.

[Felch]

Originally posted by MrFun
So if one wants to be a Catholic then that person needs to surrender their right to vote and simply vote the same as everyone else in the congregation without thinking for oneself.

Well, if you want to be a good Catholic, yes. But that's the nature of interest groups, just like how the gay community supports issues important to them. If you met a cute guy who supported Prop 8 in California, would you think he was a jerk or would you be proud of him for not surrendering his right to vote?

Nobody says you have to be a Catholic. It's a matter of choice. If I met a fellow stoner who opposed marijuana legalization I'd think he was a tool. The freedom to take a side is an essential aspect of our democratic traditions.

[Patroklos]

2. It isn't. If you can find me a Catholic who supports the death penalty then go right ahead.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Felch


Well, if you want to be a good Catholic, yes. But that's the nature of interest groups, just like how the gay community supports issues important to them. If you met a cute guy who supported Prop 8 in California, would you think he was a jerk or would you be proud of him for not surrendering his right to vote?

Nobody says you have to be a Catholic. It's a matter of choice. If I met a fellow stoner who opposed marijuana legalization I'd think he was a tool. The freedom to take a side is an essential aspect of our democratic traditions.

Propisition 8 takes away people's rights so yes, I would be upset. But on other hand, there is no equivalent of denying that person his identity as a gay man for voting differently from the way I would have voted had I live in California.

And your talk of freedom to take sides doesn't mean anything for Catholics as they have to surrender this freedom in order to remain faithful to their religion.

I was raised Catholic but renounced the Church at age seventeen - fourteen years ago. But I feel bad for those Catholics who would have to torture their conscience between voting for a politician of their choice and remaining faithful to their religion if they feel equally strongly about both.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And your talk of freedom to take sides doesn't mean anything for Catholics as they have to surrender this freedom in order to remain faithful to their religion.

That's the nature of religion. Freedom and organized religion don't mesh. You have to accept a certain set of dogma in order to actually belong to an organized religion.

[MrFun]

Beliefs that would deny other people their rights are not morally-acceptable beliefs.

[Patroklos]

Think about that really hard, then modify

[MrFun]

I mean, beliefs on specific issues (abortion, marriage rights, so forth).

The way the Catholic Church officially stands on these and other issues would have them deny other people their rights.

So I don't see how those particular beliefs can be morally acceptable.

[Felch]

Originally posted by MrFun
Beliefs that would deny other people their rights are not morally-acceptable beliefs.

What rights? Asher mentioned in a different thread that government should guarantee civil unions and leave marriages to the religious groups. I'm with him on that. Marriage isn't a fundamental right, like freedom of speech, or self-defense, or religion. It's a sacrament. If you want civil unions, I'm cool with that. If you want to get "married" in some silly Episcopalian Church, knock yourself out. No sweat off my back. Just don't kill innocent people, and don't support people who think that killing your family members is a private matter. That's all the Church really asks.

Imran is partly right in saying that freedom and organized religion don't mesh. But it's not really like people lose their freedom. They simply choose to follow the moral leadership of the Church. You can walk away from the Church at any time. There's no Berlin Wall or anything, where armed men will gun you down for trying to leave. Just stop showing up.

[Patroklos]

The way the Catholic Church officially stands on these and other issues would have them deny other people their rights.

In the case of abortion, they are most certainly upholding people's rights.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by MrFun
Beliefs that would deny other people their rights are not morally-acceptable beliefs.

So start your own damned religion.

[Felch]

Without getting into an abortion debate, since we all know that's a waste of time, suffice it to say that the Church does not view it as a right. It considers the right that the unborn have to live as over-riding whatever claims the mother would have to her right to control her own body. Likewise, marriage is a sacrament, and not a matter for public debate. If you want to make a private contract with another man where you share certain rights, and if you work it out with the insurance companies and other stakeholders to go along with it, good for you. If you want to swap rings in a Protestant church, go ahead. Just don't expect the Catholic Church to go along with it.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Felch


What rights? Asher mentioned in a different thread that government should guarantee civil unions and leave marriages to the religious groups. I'm with him on that. Marriage isn't a fundamental right, like freedom of speech, or self-defense, or religion. It's a sacrament. If you want civil unions, I'm cool with that. If you want to get "married" in some silly Episcopalian Church, knock yourself out. No sweat off my back. Just don't kill innocent people, and don't support people who think that killing your family members is a private matter. That's all the Church really asks.

I never advocate forcing churches to marry people they do not want to marry.

But I do advocate full equal marriage rights protection. If using the term "civil union" is a necessary step to reach the goal of full recognition of marriage of gay couples I can accept that.

But fully recognizing such relationships of gay couples by using the term "marriage" will not force churches to marry such people.

And what is "silly" about an Episcopalian church anyway?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Patroklos


In the case of abortion, they are most certainly upholding people's rights.

They want to deny women their own control over their body and decisions regarding reproduction.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And someone on the other side can just as easily say that pro-choice people want to deny the unborn the right to life.