American's Rights

[BeBMan]

Ok, now to some UnAmerican rights please.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
Oh, you want nicer pellets and bedding then. And DVDs instead of a little wheel. Different organisms have different standards of comfort.

Why are you excluding traveling from my proclaimed desires. I said that I would like to live comfortably. That may include traveling. No one wants to stay in the house forever.

[BeBMan]

Depends who's outside. Haven't you seen those zombie movies?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by BeBro
Depends who's outside. Haven't you seen those zombie movies?

I oppose zombies.

[BeBMan]

I thought only right wing zombies. Like those evil right wing freedoms.

[David Floyd]

Kid,

I want a nice place to live. I want transportation, time off from work, entertainment, healthcare and other things that everyone else wants. You could say I'm materialistic, but I have no desire to profit off of the misery of others, so I don't feel inferior for my desires.

So basically, you want the "right" to be comfortable, whether you earn it or not. You see, the difference between rights, and what you want (entitlements) are that rights enable you to pursue comfort. Entitlements simply enable you to siphon off the resources of others.

You're right - we all want entertainment, comfort, vacations, and health care. Always have, always will. But if you don't earn them, then eventually you won't have them. You see, things like that cost money, and if we just hand out vacations, health care, etc., like candy, eventually no one will see the need to create any wealth. If there's no wealth, where exactly is all the stuff that you want going to come from? Do you have a magical leprechaun with a pot of gold living down the street? Or a genie? Because if you don't, you're living in a dream world.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by BeBro
I thought only right wing zombies. Like those evil right wing freedoms.

"Left wing zombies" doesn't make sense to me. I associate right wing with eating people brains.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Kid,



So basically, you want the "right" to be comfortable, whether you earn it or not. You see, the difference between rights, and what you want (entitlements) are that rights enable you to pursue comfort. Entitlements simply enable you to siphon off the resources of others.

You're right - we all want entertainment, comfort, vacations, and health care. Always have, always will. But if you don't earn them, then eventually you won't have them. You see, things like that cost money, and if we just hand out vacations, health care, etc., like candy, eventually no one will see the need to create any wealth. If there's no wealth, where exactly is all the stuff that you want going to come from? Do you have a magical leprechaun with a pot of gold living down the street? Or a genie? Because if you don't, you're living in a dream world.

You answered your own question. Everyone can't live off of entitlements so why would you be assuming that I want entitlements.

People should have a right to work.

You don't really want people to earn a comfortable living. You just want to justify a system that excludes people from living comfortably.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Kidicious
"Left wing zombies" doesn't make sense to me. I associate right wing with eating people brains.

You're wrong, they have far too much contempt for brains to ever eat them.

[David Floyd]

You answered your own question. Everyone can't live off of entitlements so why would you be assuming that I want entitlements.

Because you said you were. An entitlement is when something is simply given to you, like free health care. That's why welfare is referred to as an entitlement program. It isn't just me who calls it that, that's WHAT IT IS.

People should have a right to work.

And people DO have a right to work. But what you seem to be saying is that people are entitled to a job, whether or not there is a need for their services. There are a finite number of jobs available, right? Law of scarcity and all that. If the government just starts pulling jobs out of their asses so that they can have an excuse to pay people money, where's that going to leave us? Bankrupt, that's where.

Now, you do bring up another interesting point, though. You claim - and I agree - that people have a right to work. Whether or not you agree, the law of scarcity applies to the workforce and the availability of jobs. That being said, it certainly follows that things like a minimum wage and closed shops negatively affect people's right to work, yes?

You don't really want people to earn a comfortable living. You just want to justify a system that excludes people from living comfortably.

I'd love for everyone to live comfortably. That just isn't possible in the real world, unfortunately. Resources are not unlimited, and the creation of wealth isn't magical. When you take away the wealth of people who have it, then you are doing several things. First, you are depriving them of the ability to use their wealth to create more wealth. Secondly, and related to the first point, in the long term you are driving down the overall standard of living - everyone will be equally poor. Thirdly, you are destroying incentive. Wealth exists because people want to be rich. If you simply go in and confiscate a large percentage of that wealth, to give it to those who don't have it, then you are simply destroying their incentive. Think about it, if I can either a)work hard and end up with little to show for it, or b)not do **** and end up with the same thing, what do you think I'm going to do? What do you think everyone's going to do?

And that's where the problem in your fantasy world lies. You assume that everyone has the right to live comfortable, easy lives, regardless of the realities that enable comfortable lives.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Sloww, you numbnuts, Christians haven't had freedom of religion for most of the history of Christianity; I suspect most still don't have it, or live in places that still don't have it. Clearly, it's a largely irrelevant right, by your own metric.

Freedom of speech FTW.

I think that they are basically the same right...

However, I will note that Christianity currently mostly just flourishes in the first world in places which have traditionally had freedom of religion.

I think it is because of the corruption/etc that was found so commonly in the European state/religion relationship.

We religious people in the US would do best to keep the state and religion clearly seperated...

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Because you said you were. An entitlement is when something is simply given to you, like free health care. That's why welfare is referred to as an entitlement program. It isn't just me who calls it that, that's WHAT IT IS.

Sure, but you assumed that I didn't want to work, which is obviously wrong. There's no way that a system can work without work. I don't know why you would make such and assumption unless you thought that I wouldn't answer it.

And people DO have a right to work. But what you seem to be saying is that people are entitled to a job, whether or not there is a need for their services. There are a finite number of jobs available, right? Law of scarcity and all that. If the government just starts pulling jobs out of their asses so that they can have an excuse to pay people money, where's that going to leave us? Bankrupt, that's where.

They don't have to pull jobs out of their ass. There are plenty of jobs that are given to people in other countries. And even if that weren't so if there weren't enough jobs the answer is very simple, just lower working hours, give people longer vacations, make retirement earlier etc... Come on now, you should be able to think of things like that.

Now, you do bring up another interesting point, though. You claim - and I agree - that people have a right to work. Whether or not you agree, the law of scarcity applies to the workforce and the availability of jobs. That being said, it certainly follows that things like a minimum wage and closed shops negatively affect people's right to work, yes?

People don't have a right to work in this country. How can you negatively affect something that doesn't exist?

I'd love for everyone to live comfortably. That just isn't possible in the real world, unfortunately. Resources are not unlimited, and the creation of wealth isn't magical. When you take away the wealth of people who have it, then you are doing several things. First, you are depriving them of the ability to use their wealth to create more wealth. Secondly, and related to the first point, in the long term you are driving down the overall standard of living - everyone will be equally poor. Thirdly, you are destroying incentive. Wealth exists because people want to be rich. If you simply go in and confiscate a large percentage of that wealth, to give it to those who don't have it, then you are simply destroying their incentive. Think about it, if I can either a)work hard and end up with little to show for it, or b)not do **** and end up with the same thing, what do you think I'm going to do? What do you think everyone's going to do?

And that's where the problem in your fantasy world lies. You assume that everyone has the right to live comfortable, easy lives, regardless of the realities that enable comfortable lives.

I build wealth all the time even though I have no capital. Just the other day I was remodeling a hospital, and before that I as building the inside of a Target store. That's how you build wealth.

[David Floyd]

Sure, but you assumed that I didn't want to work, which is obviously wrong. There's no way that a system can work without work. I don't know why you would make such and assumption unless you thought that I wouldn't answer it.

I assumed no such thing. I'm sure you want to work. However, you must admit that in an entitlement system there are people who will be able to reap the benefits without working.

They don't have to pull jobs out of their ass. There are plenty of jobs that are given to people in other countries.

What, like building bridges to nowhere? And it isn't the fact that you can't make up busywork for people to do, the point is that you presumably have to pay them to do it.

And even if that weren't so if there weren't enough jobs the answer is very simple, just lower working hours, give people longer vacations, make retirement earlier etc... Come on now, you should be able to think of things like that.

Sure, I can think of things like that. The problem with those things is that they send labor costs skyrocketing. Labor/payroll tends to be the biggest expense in most companies, and is one of the big reasons that the US auto industry is having so many problems (unions forcing wages that aren't competitive with the rest of the world). Kid, money doesn't grow on the money tree. It's a finite, limited resource. Sure, you can continue to squeeze the rich, but at some point, the rich will simply decide to take their money out of the country, or simply lobby their Congressmen to give them legal loopholes (and good luck combating that). Rich people in this country are the ones who employ the poor and middle class - if you drive them out of business by forcing their labor costs to skyrocket, who does that help? At some point, you have to have a complete command economy where nobody has a right to any money or property, and anything they possess is at the sufference of the government. Otherwise, your system breaks down, and come to think of it, command economies simply break down too.

People don't have a right to work in this country. How can you negatively affect something that doesn't exist?

Sure people have the right to work. They just don't have the right to a guaranteed job. Sort of like how I have the right to own a car, but I don't have a right to a guaranteed car. Or how I have the right to bear arms, but the government isn't passing out guns to everyone. Or how I have the right to travel freely throughout the US, yet no one is going to buy me a plane ticket.

I build wealth all the time even though I have no capital. Just the other day I was remodeling a hospital, and before that I as building the inside of a Target store. That's how you build wealth.

Yeah, but would you be doing it if no one was paying you? No, didn't think so. And who pays you? That's right, rich corporate executives. Why are they employing you? Because you are providing a service to them, that will enable them to increase their wealth. If Target is building a new store, they are doing it because they think it will be profitable, not so that they can have an excuse to give you a job and a paycheck.

No, wealth is created when people see a business opportunity or have an idea, and capitalize on that idea or opportunity. When they do so, you benefit too if you are helping them (working for them). Just because you don't benefit to the same extent doesn't mean that they are doing anything wrong. And if you think so, then you are free to pursue an idea or opportunity, too.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Why are you excluding traveling from my proclaimed desires. I said that I would like to live comfortably. That may include traveling. No one wants to stay in the house forever.

Pet carrier or habitrail?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Christians didn't have freedom of speech. They didn't have guns. They did it anyway. I'll stay with my pick.

No, they had swords and an emperor. Makes the difference.