American's Rights

[BeBMan]

The right to get bailed out by gov if you're bankrupt

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Christians didn't have freedom of speech. They didn't have guns. They did it anyway. I'll stay with my pick.

Sloww, you numbnuts, Christians haven't had freedom of religion for most of the history of Christianity; I suspect most still don't have it, or live in places that still don't have it. Clearly, it's a largely irrelevant right, by your own metric.

Freedom of speech FTW.

[SlowwHand]

Rufus, you numbnuts, that's my point.

Got anything else to run your mouth about? I can ask that question. Freedom of Speech.

[Pekka]

Let me give you some reasoning why I chose the right to remain silent, copied it from CO.

It's more pragmatic POV, because unless we have that right, it means we'd have to incriminate ourselves. That leads into very coercive interrogation methods by default. Otherwise it has no value what so ever, and that in turn leads to very corrupt justice system and horrible corruption within authorities, because the power is too big. It becomes an intimidation tool where all undesireables become the targets.

I might as well have chosen freedom of speech, but I'd rather not be tortured, I'd rather not see ad hoc arrests and targeting of minorities or whoever doesn't fit the profile of docile citizen. To me, this is the very essence of any free society that values its citizens, as I don't view it as an enterprise but a club. A club where we are all equal, we all own one stock, we have one vote. An enterprise is lead, it has an agenda other than the club's agenda, which by default cannot serve the purpose of the society. If it is an enterprise, I don't see the point of it and would rather take an anarchist position. In a club? I'm a citizen. To serve all, not the few.

TO me freedom of speech matters very little if we could be randomly targeted, abused and therefor sentenced as well, because the issue of guitly or not guilty doesn't matter anymore. I think it is VERY important that we have the right to not incriminate ourselves, even if we are in fact guilty, because otherwise it doens't work at all.

All rights are important, but in their very nature they are kind of counterproductive. Freedom of speech is not really about that you can express your opinion. Because you can. Even in the most strict places you can do that. It is what happens to you if you in fact do it, that's what matters. To not get beaten up, to not be assassinated by the government, to not be locked up if you do is freedom of speech. Of course it has other branches as well, but that's the main one.

Freedom of religion is to not be persecuted if you do. But you can do it, it's what happens to you, if you do. That's the right part.

But governments can't give you any rights. You have them already. Everyone does. No one gave you freedom of anything. It is the degree of what we don't allow that separates places, and they can be talked as rights. But governments take, they don't give you anything. It is impossible for a government to give you a freedom of speech, what they do is they say that we aren't going to beat you up for it. Thanks government for not beating me up for my God given right

Of course it does matter as we see restrictive societies. We would think these are quite obvious things, but they aren't, and that's why we know they are in fact important and vital to democratic societies.

Thus, I choose the right to remain silent as the most practical instance of actually nto getting beaten up if you don't comply. THe right to not be in compliance, that to me is always valuable. It protects you from people kicking your teeth in. So even if I didn't have freedom of speech, I'd still not get beaten up if I crossed the line. At least I have that much, whereas if I had freedom fo speech but not the right to remain silent, I'd get beaten up for something silly, and most likely something I never did, which in my books renders freedom of speech pointless.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Rufus, you numbnuts, that's my point.

My point is that Christianity has flourished without freedom of religion. That was your point too? Then why do you value it more than any other right?

[SlowwHand]

Go to some places in the world and say "(Insert local Name used here) doesn't exist!" Or say, "I believe I'm a Christian." See what you get.

Christians were fed to the lions. Christians met in secrecy. Anyway, I'm not here to convince you. I asked for opinions. That's my opinion.

[Pekka]

I think the difference is that Sloww would like to be a Christian and not be targeted for it. Christianity has flourished even when under fire, but that doesn't mean Christians like to be under fire. I think the goal is to live in peace with what you're doing, as in your way of life.

[Riesstiu IV]

The right to shoot people on my property using an assault rifle.

[David Floyd]

DD is actually right. The fact that the Bill of Rights is spelled out is more restrictive than anything else, because it unfortunately allows some people to assume that those rights are somehow more important than other rights, the 9th Amendment not withstanding.

What's more important than enumerated rights is restrictions on government. If the Constitution is a restrictive document when it comes to government, only granting specific powers to government, then the Bill of Rights is irrelevant. If the government doesn't have the enumerated power to restrict religion or quarter soldiers in your home, or whatever, then those rights do not need to be spelled out.

As for religion being the most important right, come on, Slow. Being able to freely be religious is more important to you than the right to keep soldiers from being forcibly quartered in your home, more important than freedom of speech (which implies religion anyway), and more important than the right to a fair and speedy trial by jury?

[SlowwHand]

I said that they're all important from the very first. Pekka understands what I'm saying.

[Pekka]

Sure. And I know you mean more with it as well. Like for example that you said freedom of religion, not freedom of religion when it comes to Christianity. Pretty much meaning that you'd be guaranteed to have a way of life, set of ideals and all that stuff and live it, no matter what your religion is. That also means, that other religions can't totally dominate others, take some countries for example with Sharia, you can't have freedom of religion there, because the one that is already dominates so much, but with freedom of religion, everyone is guaranteed their own spot without too much pressure. So in a way it is also kind of like freedom of speech, because in that religion you have to have the right to express your religion in many different ways, and that speech can't be restricted.

That, and in its own way it guarantees a way of equality for others as well, minorities and other groups.

I'm sure speech has flourished at all times in history, but it's still a good idea to protect it. It's about the individual expressing it, not the speech or religion itself. Those of course will exist with or without the permission of any government. What matters is the individual, the citizen. The ones who the rights were written for.

[Kidlicious]

I don't really care about freedom of speech, and certainly not freedom of religion or any other right wing freedom.

All I care about is the right to live comfortably and safely.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I don't really care about freedom of speech, and certainly not freedom of religion or any other right wing freedom.

All I care about is the right to live comfortably and safely.

That's nice. Now get back in your cage, we'll put more pellets in your bowl shortly.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok


That's nice. Now get back in your cage, we'll put more pellets in your bowl shortly.

Elok, I'm not talking about living like that. You don't know me very well, do you?

I want a nice place to live. I want transportation, time off from work, entertainment, healthcare and other things that everyone else wants. You could say I'm materialistic, but I have no desire to profit off of the misery of others, so I don't feel inferior for my desires.

[Elok]

Oh, you want nicer pellets and bedding then. And DVDs instead of a little wheel. Different organisms have different standards of comfort.