The Canadian Federal Election will probably be October 14th

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Flubber
Put simply, if the conservatives had not made the decision they did, the concept of corporate taxation would have disappeared from the Canadian tax scheme. The tax advantage was so extreme that the 5 major chartered banks and ALL the major oil and gas companies were at least looking at converting to trusts.

Unchecked the actual corporate entity would pretty much disappear as ALL business would have been by trust. If you want no corporate taxes, why not just abolish them instead of making everyone convert to a trust.

The conservatives decision on this matter was right at the time, its right today and its right tomorrow. Their error on this issue was in ever commiting to do otherwise

But that is the problem. The fact all these corporate entities were considering the option was no big secret. For this government to make the promise then reverse it after the election means 1 of 2 things:

1) They knew they couldn't keep the promise but made it anyway (lied), or
2) They didn't know when they should have (incompetent).

I don't see a #3. Lying or incompetence are good reasons to vote against a party imho.

[Wezil]

Rob Anders Mandela boy.

I have Irene Mathyssen. The one that accused James Moore of looking at porn in the House (he wasn't of course).

High calibre candidates.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Wezil


I would be glad to Flubber. I have always found you to be a quality poster and you are intellectually honest to boot.

damn -- an intellectually honest lawyer?? nah people wouldn't buy THAT

Originally posted by Wezil


We can talk about any party. I hate them all at the moment.

I hate the Libs and despise their cornerstone policy. I find the NDPs and Greens to be fine to shout about their issues. The Conservatives? to me a mixed bag-- They do some things I like and many others I don't. But for me as a fiscal conservative, they are the best option we have and I really want to get out of minority hell

Originally posted by Wezil


The "Green Shift" was an incredibly stupid policy for Dion to trot out. It has become even more so with the economic uncertainty rising the past few weeks. A campaign killer to be sure.

Agreed

Originally posted by Wezil




Ben is correct. (No really, he is ). Spending by this government is way up. They haven't gone into deficit yet (that we know of anyway) but it could certainly be around the corner.

But what is the spending on? So Harper will get slammed by some as a program cutting rightie while spending is up? How much of it is the military/Afghanistan? How much is for what? I WANT a fiscally conservative government- regardless of who it is- and currently I see Harper as the only potential for that -- If not him , who?

Dion? not a chance based on his main policy plank

Originally posted by Wezil

I agree those issues in particular aren't "defining" but the impression the Cons would delve deeper into their social conservative roots (given a majority) is the problem for the party in some places.

I just don't think that anything strong socially conservative would have much legs. Part of my desire to see harper in a majority is to see how this would play out. Perhaps I underestimate what a government or even a very strong PMO can do but I frankly don't see Harper being able to force anything too radical-- Do you really think that the types of candidates they have across the board would stand silently by while a strong social conservative mandate was imposed by Harper? I just don't see it. harper dropped the gay marriage issue quick enough once he had fulfilled his promise and I suspect that he is politician enough to stay away from the hot buttons

Originally posted by Wezil


I heard a wag talking about Harper and his sweaters early in the campaign. Something to the affect of "I haven't seen Harper this warm and fuzzy since he shook his young son's hand on the 1st day of school".

I think the makeover is rather cynical and I suspect others feel the same.

I just see it as normal campaigning-- No different than the politicians donning a hard hat or a baseball cap at certain events

Originally posted by Wezil




Not me. I've seen enough. It's why I like the idea of a coalition government with the Conservatives on the outside. Let them come back when they mean what they say. Nothing I would enjoy more than to see the Cons win most seats but have to sit in Opposition. It would be a more accurate reflection of the public will as more people will vote against Harper than for him. Bring a little PR to our FPTP system if you will.

There's where we differ and your position actually surprises me. You seem to fear the NDP and agree that the Green PLan is idiotic policy yet you want a Liberal-NDP coalition?? You must really hate/distrust/fear the conservatives a LOT .

[Asher]

I agree those issues in particular aren't "defining" but the impression the Cons would delve deeper into their social conservative roots (given a majority) is the problem for the party in some places.

Not to presume to give the mighty Wezil a lecture, but since when did they have true social conservative roots? I wasn't aware the PCs were very socially conservative. Methinks you need to check your basic definitions.

[Garth Vader]

Sweater vest Harper is only warm and fuzzy in a "Hey kids want some candy from my windowless van" kind of way. Maybe it's the smirk. Those ads are ruining football games for me

I am an ABC in a C riding so I'll be voting like Flubber. I should create a "The Above" party and change my name to None Of.

[Asher]

For the record, I hate all of the parties as well. I've said this many, many times. I was completely indifferent to this election til I saw the Green Shift.

It's the only reason I'm voting again (after years of abstaining). To vote conservatives to keep the others out. Any other party right now will tank the economy. It's as simple as that.

The idea of a coalition between the NDP and Libs is hilarious. It'd be the most dysfunctional and destructive government we've had in decades. Alberta would, of course, get shafted from every direction there because neither party has any hope in Alberta for representation.

Right now Alberta is a sitting target for greedy little politicians from out east. They're going to **** it all up.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Flubber

But what is the spending on? So Harper will get slammed by some as a program cutting rightie while spending is up? How much of it is the military/Afghanistan? How much is for what? I WANT a fiscally conservative government- regardless of who it is- and currently I see Harper as the only potential for that -- If not him , who?

Dion? not a chance based on his main policy plank

I hear what you are saying. I think my answer to your main point (your desire) is in response to a later point.

What on? I don't care to go find out (and can't be bothered fighting off challenges to sources). The number I hear is up 8% overall.

I just don't think that anything strong socially conservative would have much legs. Part of my desire to see harper in a majority is to see how this would play out. Perhaps I underestimate what a government or even a very strong PMO can do but I frankly don't see Harper being able to force anything too radical-- Do you really think that the types of candidates they have across the board would stand silently by while a strong social conservative mandate was imposed by Harper? I just don't see it. harper dropped the gay marriage issue quick enough once he had fulfilled his promise and I suspect that he is politician enough to stay away from the hot buttons

(I think this addresses your point as well Asher)

Harper and the Conservative's base of support is still the old Reformers. Try as they might they can't win over the former PCs in numbers they want/need much less those not considered "conservatives". The red Tories don't trust the power an influence of the Reform wing of this party and are still in political limbo.

edit: I mentioned the conservative to Green movement before the last vote. Look there for where many former PCs are today.

I just see it as normal campaigning-- No different than the politicians donning a hard hat or a baseball cap at certain events

Okay. A neutral to you. In the minus column for me. I am soooo tired of politics as usual.

There's where we differ and your position actually surprises me. You seem to fear the NDP and agree that the Green PLan is idiotic policy yet you want a Liberal-NDP coalition?? You must really hate/distrust/fear the conservatives a LOT .

It may surprise you but it bothers me. I think I take solace in the belief a Lib/NDP coalition would be a) difficult to manage and, b) not likely to last too terribly long. I have no desire to see them at the controls for any length of time but I truly believe Harper (not necessarily the party so much) needs to be spanked. You won't hear me complain about many of the Conservative policies (some yes), my issue is with the leader. The party takes some blame in letting this control freak implement such a government but I do understand the "defer to the leader" concept.

There is of course another possibility with the Harper control thing. Maybe his Cabinet really is too incompetent to make their own departmental decisions and speak to the media and it must be done from the PMO.

In short, I think "hate" and "distrust" are the most accurate. Take the Afghanistan about face for example. As glad as I am to hear Harper announce he is finally in agreement with most Canadians (albeit after the election has begun... couldn't be in that ongoing effort to woo Quebec could it?), I don't believe for one second he would follow through if granted a majority in this election. Between now and 2011 he would extend the mission. I'd bet the farm on it. Income Trusts anyone?

[Asher]

There was a reason to re-evaluate the income trusts position.

Why would Harper want to stay in Afghanistan longer than he promised? What's in it for him?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Wezil
Rob Anders Mandela boy.

I have Irene Mathyssen. The one that accused James Moore of looking at porn in the House (he wasn't of course).

High calibre candidates.

Ahh I see you looked up Calgary West-- ya I simply cannot ever bring myself to vote for Anders. I even considered joining the conservative party for the express purpose of trying to get another candidate since so many people vote simply on party lines but in the end joining a party was not in my makeup-- I simply cannot see myself tying my support to one group in that fashion

There was even some legal action as there was a group that tried to unseat him but apparently the riding exec are all Anders people and did things like hold a nomination meeting without advertizing it and all sorts of wonderful things like that-- all designed to keep him in place

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Garth Vader
Sweater vest Harper is only warm and fuzzy in a "Hey kids want some candy from my windowless van" kind of way. Maybe it's the smirk. Those ads are ruining football games for me

That's the impression I was getting at. Well said.

I am an ABC in a C riding so I'll be voting like Flubber. I should create a "The Above" party and change my name to None Of.

You would surely win. What an awful field we have this time out.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Garth Vader
Sweater vest Harper is only warm and fuzzy in a "Hey kids want some candy from my windowless van" kind of way. Maybe it's the smirk. Those ads are ruining football games for me

Get a PVR and start watching sporting events 15-20 minutes AFTER they start. You skip all commercials and rewatch any plays you like as many times as you like. You hit halftime in about real time and then can go do something for half an hour and then repeat the process

I don't actually watch anything live anymore and only watch the commericals I want to watch. As a former poli sci type guy I will watch any political commercial for anyone once-- I like to see what their approaches are

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Asher
For the record, I hate all of the parties as well. I've said this many, many times. I was completely indifferent to this election til I saw the Green Shift.

Really? You don't like it?

It's the only reason I'm voting again (after years of abstaining). To vote conservatives to keep the others out. Any other party right now will tank the economy. It's as simple as that.

What non-conservative TO riding are you in? You aren't so optimistic to think your local Conservative has a chance?

The idea of a coalition between the NDP and Libs is hilarious. It'd be the most dysfunctional and destructive government we've had in decades. Alberta would, of course, get shafted from every direction there because neither party has any hope in Alberta for representation.

Right now Alberta is a sitting target for greedy little politicians from out east. They're going to **** it all up.

They wouldn't hold it together long enough to do any permanent damage. Short term pain for long term gain.

Re - Why extend Afghanistan?

It plays well to their base and allows them to continue big $$ spending on the military (which of course also plays well to their base).

This was also the reason for Harper and the Canadian Alliance to support sending Cdn troops to Iraq btw (despite your refusal to acknowledge that quite public and incontrovertible fact).

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Flubber


Ahh I see you looked up Calgary West-- ya I simply cannot ever bring myself to vote for Anders. I even considered joining the conservative party for the express purpose of trying to get another candidate since so many people vote simply on party lines but in the end joining a party was not in my makeup-- I simply cannot see myself tying my support to one group in that fashion

There was even some legal action as there was a group that tried to unseat him but apparently the riding exec are all Anders people and did things like hold a nomination meeting without advertizing it and all sorts of wonderful things like that-- all designed to keep him in place

I looked to see who your MP was but I was already aware of Rob Anders and his troubles. I'm a political junkie and know more about our MPs than is healthy but I just can't seem to leave it alone.

I almost joined a party once but couldn't bring myself to do it. I did some election work for them but never took out a membership.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wezil
What non-conservative TO riding are you in? You aren't so optimistic to think your local Conservative has a chance?

Parkdale-High Park. It's a staunch NDP riding. At least it's not Liberal.

And no, Conservative candidate has no chance of winning.

Re - Why extend Afghanistan?

It plays well to their base and allows them to continue big $$ spending on the military (which of course also plays well to their base).

This was also the reason for Harper and the Canadian Alliance to support sending Cdn troops to Iraq btw (despite your refusal to acknowledge that quite public and incontrovertible fact).

I think you grossly overestimate the importance of Afghanistan on the right-wing base. Most of them simply don't care. You can also increase military spending in the name of arctic sovereignty without destroying military assets by sending them to Afghanistan.

The CA supported going to Iraq. Harper was a member of the CA. So he echoed the party line. I'm not going to explain Canadian party politics to you again.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Wezil


But that is the problem. The fact all these corporate entities were considering the option was no big secret. For this government to make the promise then reverse it after the election means 1 of 2 things:

1) They knew they couldn't keep the promise but made it anyway (lied), or
2) They didn't know when they should have (incompetent).

I don't see a #3. Lying or incompetence are good reasons to vote against a party imho.

My question on this issue is that the liberals who were governing at the time put the disatrous policy in place. An opposition party with far less information said they would continue it.

If the Liberals had won last election they would have had to reverse the income trust policy- It was just too big a loophole-- or face a fiscal problem as ALL corporate income tax revenues disappeared over the following years

So everything you attribute to the conservatives on the issue aplies equally to the liberals does it not? Or is there a distinction I am not seeing?