What is the state of Russian armor?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Patroklos


The funny thing is, after seeing it in two threads, I think you believe you are being witty here

Sad isn't it?

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by Patroklos


1991 proved this woefully untrue in the extreme.

When you have air supremacy, nothing else matters much.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Patroklos


1991 proved this woefully untrue in the extreme.

I think the lack of modern fire control systems, primitive night vision, less trained crews, and lack of any air suport had a lot to do with how one sided the gulf war was.

And even in 1991 it would be stupid to compare an Iraqi tank crew to what was then a Soviet tank crew, whoc would be using either a better equiped version of a T-72, or a T-80 or T-64.

[Kirnwaffen]

I think a more relevant question, if you want to compare NATO and Russia, would be "What is the state of Russian Air Power"?

[SpencerH]

T-72's ? I only got a glimpse (and my eyesight is going) but I would've sworn it was a T54.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Kirnwaffen
I think a more relevant question, if you want to compare NATO and Russia, would be "What is the state of Russian Air Power"?

Indeed. The Su-35 is a pretty decent plane, but NATO definately carries the day in the air.

[BeBMan]

If it's true that they already lost a handful of planes in the short campaign against Georgia then I'm not impressed.

[Lancer]

During the first Gulf war an M1 got stuck in the sand and left behind. While the crew waited for the recovery vehicle 3 T72s showed up. Despite the immoble M1 taking three direct hits it managed to knock out 2 of the T 72s. The third one saw it wasn't any good and hid behind a dune. The M1 engaged and destroyed the last T72 by firing t h r o u g h the dune. The M1 was later repaired and returned to service. The 3 T72s were junk.

[Lancer]

Well, the Russians lied, they didn't pull out of Georgia. They are keeping the port city of Poti. Poti is the Port through which, according to my understanding, alot of oil goes out by tanker.

This to me is HUGE. It is the making of a ground war the implications of which are unimaginable, the end of the world.

Sure, there's lots of diplomatic things the west can try...so we'll see. The Russians can't be relying on 300 T-90s to hold us back, that's for certain.

[Vanguard]

Nah, we'll cave. The Russians know it. We know it.

All the Russians are doing now is rubbing the neocons' noses in it a bit. "Realpolitik this, a-holes." That sort of thing.

[Kirnwaffen]

I truly doubt that Russian T-72s would go as quietly as Iraqi T-72s. IIRC, the non-export variant has a better sighting system and reactive armor, and I have no doubt that they've improved their kinetic penetrators since the Gulf War.

[Lancer]

I hope you are right Vanguard.

Kirnwaffen, we'll see. I for one doubt it will make that much of a difference. Still, it would make fot one heck of a tank battle, NATO trying to cut its way across a slice of Russia to Georgia. The alternative is going the easy route through Turkey, but I doubt Turkey will allow that, the bums.

[Kirnwaffen]

I doubt it will ever come down to armed conflict. In any event, even if it did, I doubt there would be any real tank battle. NATO would immediately go for air superiority and start tank planking.

[Lancer]

That could get rather messy. Russian air defense would likely be very intensive. Anything that survives the SAMs would have to deal with the Russian airforce. This isn't Iraq, Serb was right about that.

If it came down to it I'd send in the ground forces with a NATO CAP, but not try to do it with planes alone, too costly. Problem is, NATO exercises in the 70s and 80s revealed that as soon as things start going sour NATO field officers would use a tactical nuke. I imagine Russia would do the same. From there...

Hope you're correct about Putin pulling out, backing down.

[Kirnwaffen]

Even if Putin decides to say, I think it highly unlikely that we will try to intervene militarily. No rational person is interested in engaging Russian forces over Georgia. Everyone is going do a lot of talking, the Russians will probably stay right where they're at, and the US will lose a little prestige. Hopefully we've learned a lesson about supporting a rash, unpredictable, and potentially unstable country.