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Originally posted by DanS
Edit: Congratulations. It was probably all those car factories pumping out Yugos.
Edit: Congratulations. It was probably all those car factories pumping out Yugos.
That was rather funny.
Unless you are serious.
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That was rather funny.
Unless you are serious.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila -
Nope. We did it ourselves, with very little aid.Originally posted by DanS
Again, did the US provide Marshall Plan-style aid to Slovenia?
But a country with 2 million people didn't have to develop a massive military-industrial complex to compete with the US. Once we managed to convince the US that it shouldn't force us to stay in Yugoslavia, it was easy sailing.
Why do you think providing Russia such aid would have been bad? I mean it turned out great with Germany and Japan, they are your close allies to this day.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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I agree, we could have made Russia into a solid ally. Instead we wanted to exploit, an we will have russia as a not freind.
JMJon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.Comment
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Can anyone understand what BK was trying to say?Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Russia pissed on the offer.
I know many many Russians who left to come over here, and all of them, the most important thing is that Russia had the opportunity to join the economic system of the west.
There's no excuse for having to invade your neighbour, who has been peaceful.
Exactly 10 years ago we had no economy to speak of. It was destroyed by the tidal forces of capitalism.Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Here's a fact. Russia's time has passed. For all the posturing of Putin, Russia is far weaker then she was 20 years previous, and weaker then she was 10 years ago.
20 years ago we were ruled by a wimp who did his best to ruin the country while claiming he was restarting the economy. All for a shiny medal from Sweden and all the pizza he can eat.
Do you think we should be grateful for that condescending act? Also, back then there was a lot of political freedom here. Nothing good came out of it.Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Have you forgotten that the west let you in G8 despite not having the economy to justify entry, or the political freedoms?
I don't love Putin, but I don't hate him. He is not a perfect benevolent dictator you might think everyone here is thinking he is, but he's the best ruler we had since that guy from Gori. There's a lot of room for improvement (more people should join Khodorkovsky, for example, but there should be fewer state-owned TV channels), but can you name a better candidate?Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I have no animosity towards Russians. I went to a Mennonite church comprised of Russian emigres for some time. I can say with a straight face that I love Georgia and I love Russia but I hate Putin.
Okay, what do you say we should do?Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
If Russia wants to go at it alone, she is doing her best to drive away her allies.Graffiti in a public toilet
Do not require skill or wit
Among the **** we all are poets
Among the poets we are ****.Comment
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You see. No need of Marshall Plan-style help from the US.Nope. We did it ourselves, with very little aid.
What is the evidence that it would have been good? How can you say it wouldn't have been "throwing good money after bad"? The system needed to change. US money may not have been helpful in changing the system. In fact, it may have been counterproductive.Originally posted by Heraclitus
Why do you think providing Russia such aid would have been bad? I mean it turned out great with Germany and Japan, they are your close allies to this day.
Germany and Japan had economic systems that were relatively close to our own. Communism was light years from our form of capitalism.Last edited by DanS; August 21, 2008, 12:56.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Point taken. But you'll have to admit that Poland is a country of some size.Originally posted by onodera
How hard is it to do a U-turn on a Mini Cooper, and how hard is it to do a U-turn on a Kamaz?I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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I do think that pushing Russia to liberalize aggressively was a major mistake. A byproduct of this was that we encouraged Yeltsin to centralize power in the Presidency, and away from the more conservative Duma. Leading to the autocratic status quo.
The other major mistake was the expansion of NATO into the Warsaw Pact. This conception of NATO as an anti-Russian alliance has partially contributed to the resurgent nationalism."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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They probably selected "No" in the "Propose An Unholy Alliance" event....oh wait, that was something else
On a more serious note, a Marshal Plan for Sov (as for any other country) would have only made sense if the money wouldn't have disappeared in some dark channels and if it would have indeed been used to build up a strong economy (which btw still seems not be in place in Russia, since it depends largely on selling resources - petrostate is hardly meant as a compliment) as opposed to building up private riches for some oligarchs.
That again would have required a sort of strict control and oversight that could have been viewed as humiliating in Soviet/Russian eyes as well, since it requires a brutally honest view by Russians on their own situation, incl an acknowledgement that such a help is needed, and that to a former superpower from another former superpower which happened to be Sovs biggest enemy over long.
Post-War Europe had not much choice to avoid adopting such a view before it received aid of the original Marshall plan, esp. not Germany, which was under Allied control anyway, but even the rest of Europe had suffered so much that there wasn't much of an alternative.BlahComment
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It seems that shock therapy was a mistake, at least for Russia.
The idea of a Marshall Plan is interesting, but the flipside is that we'd have wanted things for our money (we did with the original MP). Russia is nationalistic enough to have resented that and refused. So I don't think a MP was a realistic possibility.
Besides, as you put it yourself:
So, what would the basis for the "juggernaut" of an alliance you speak of?No, we didn't choose freedom, we chose jeans, cola and bubble gum. This, and we stopped executing senior party leaders, which allowed a spineless idiot to get to the top. Yeah, the one with a birthmark.
Look, I was (and remain) all for friendship with Russia. My highschool went on a trip in... 1991 or '92 (right after the failed coup with Yeltsin on the Tank and all that). It was great. Friendship was in the air. But national alliances come about and last because of common interests.
I absolutely agree that mistakes were made in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union. I too am disappointed in how things have gone. But it takes two to tango, and I'm sorry, but I doubt your willingness to dance...
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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It seems to me that indeed the West and particularly the US were/are too much into "You commies lost the coldwar, yay!!!"-in-your-face-stuff plus the "We tell you how to behave now, but do as we wish ourselves"-stuff, which certainly produced increasing resistance against the west in turn. Otoh, it's a bit of a "what came first - chicken or egg" question if that was the cause for a new rift between both sides, or if the authoritarian stuff Russia increasingly resorted to and the unwillingness to accept that Sov is finally gone (and therefore relations to Sovs former uhm "provinces" aren't anymore the same) are responsible. Maybe both /shrugBlahComment
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Two statements that show why NATO expansion was a good thing and why Russian Nationalism is bad for the world.Originally posted by onodera
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Also, back then there was a lot of political freedom here. Nothing good came out of it.
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but he's the best ruler we had since that guy from Gori...
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003Comment
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I think half the problem here seems to be that Russians see the collapse of the USSR as a bad thing while everyone else came to the opposite conclusion.I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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Out of the former Soviet Bloc it looks like half are enjoying Western prosperity now, a quarter are on the way, and a quarter are wallowing in a backwardness of their own making.
Seems pretty good considering the former state of things."The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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This whole thread is based on pining for the good old days of communism.Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think half the problem here seems to be that Russians see the collapse of the USSR as a bad thing while everyone else came to the opposite conclusion.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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I agree that it is easier to do a u-turn in a mini then in a big truck but the reality is Russia didn't even try. When exactly did it become legal to own land in Russia? The very, very end of the Yelsin era? The beginning of the Putin era?
In other words a decade after everyone else had already made this very initial step to a market economy. I call that not trying.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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