How do I forge an elite?

[tinyp3nis]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Is not incompatable with...



I suppose any scientist/politician/buisnessmen/athelete working for anyone to accomplish anything is not elite?

Well, wiping with left hand instead of the right one is surely an idea, I wonder if you know what I meant and are just playing or having trouble understanding me?
Like I said

it depends on the definition of elite.

I read the op again and I think I got it wrong and he actually might mean "robotic followers" and not elite the way I have understood it, perhaps we have different definitions, or perhaps mine is just wrong.
Scientiest/politician/whatever who goes by whatever rules is given him and limits his thought is not intelligent free thinker, but perhaps elite then?

[rah]

Hmm interesting. I'm glad to see the responses from the marines because originally I would have leaned towards areeing with asher but having read the well thought out repsonses, I'll give the marines considerably more credit on the cereberal side.

Of more interest I notice ASHER comparing the thinking side of marines vs. what he does. Does this mean that ASHER considers himself part of the elite that should be emulated here. I thought that was someone else's schtick here.

[ramseya]

Asher:

How about this occupational specialty, Human Intel:

Beyond the top secret/sensitive compartmentalized information (TS/SCI) security clearance requirement, the most important attribute for a CI/HUMINT officer is "people-skills." Your ability to make and maintain contacts is your "bread and butter." You and your subordinates can expect to conduct operations like recruiting agents (people who give us information for money or other reasons), conduct liaison with other military and government agencies to provide force protection information, conduct terrorism threat analysis and anti-terrorism awareness classes, and interrogate prisoners-of-war.

[Asher]

Originally posted by rah
Hmm interesting. I'm glad to see the responses from the marines because originally I would have leaned towards areeing with asher but having read the well thought out repsonses, I'll give the marines considerably more credit on the cereberal side.

Of more interest I notice ASHER comparing the thinking side of marines vs. what he does. Does this mean that ASHER considers himself part of the elite that should be emulated here. I thought that was someone else's schtick here.

I'm certainly far more elite in terms of a thinking man's occupation compared to a marine.

It's just the easiest comparison. I could just as well compared an engineer or an investment banker, basically any non-manual labour civilian job to compared favourably to the marines in the "intelligence required" department.

[Asher]

Originally posted by ramseya
Asher:

How about this occupational specialty, Human Intel:

To be honest, that's about as cerebral as it gets in the marines and to me the requirements sound a lot like the sales guys we have in our office here...

The Marines are far from the best place to learn "people skills" so again, that doesn't make them elite.

[Patroklos]

I'm largely independent. I work on a team. We gather requirements from the client, together we formulate an architecture, then I go off and do my modules. I design them how I want, when I want, etc. The "rules" are to give reasonable estimates and timelines and "do right by the client"...

But you are still producing what someone else wants, according to their requirements. You are a obviously just a cog in a machine.

Yeah, like how to move where he's told?

I've no doubt there's some basic thought required, but to even pretend it's anywhere near the level of thought and analysis required by many people in the civilian world is just bizarre. Most Marines are footsoldiers...simple as that. You can spin "having to figure out how to cross a river" as "tackling unique problems", but we both know that's putting it nicely.

How many years did you spend in the Marines?

Yes.

You know of non military Marine Intel officers. Please to elaborate

Irregardless of what you think about their jobs, that doesn't make them not elite in their field.

[ramseya]

to me the requirements sound a lot like the sales guys we have in our office here...

I really didn't realize that the sales guys in your office conducted liaison with military and government agencies to provide force protection information. I didn't know they conducted terrorism threat analysis and anti-terrorism awareness classes, and interrogated prisoners-of-war. Wow. The Pentagon should get a hold of your skilled office salespeople! We can send them in 12-man squads to train Afghan tribal leaders to fight the Taliban... or send them to Guantanamo to interrogate suspected terrorists.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
But you are still producing what someone else wants, according to their requirements. You are a obviously just a cog in a machine.

I see you missed the point completely.

How many years did you spend in the Marines?

How many years did you?

**** off with this kind of stall tactic, it pisses me off. Deal with the meat of the argument. Use that intelligence of yours that you've honed swabbing the deck of a rusty ship in the middle of nowhere.

You know of non military Marine Intel officers. Please to elaborate

You're not helping the case that Navy/Marine people are smart when you repeatedly miss the ****ing point and misread what is said.

I obviously don't know civilian marine intel officers -- what I said was they have equivalent intellectual requirements to those in the civilian world.

Irregardless

That is NOT A WORD. A common mistake by common people who are NOT ELITE.

of what you think about their jobs, that doesn't make them not elite in their field.

Now you're reframing the argument. If this is about being "elite in the field", then every field ever is elite. That's a stunningly insightful commentary from our intellectual Navy comrade.

[Patroklos]

You have to be completely stupid to compare the absolute rigidity of the command structure in the marines to that in the civilian world.

You are smart enough to realize that distinction is irrelevant.

Yes, we have managers. No, we don't kill people because our managers tell us to.

Niether do Marines.

The military is extremely obedience-heavy. There's a reason bootcamps are designed the way they were to foster such obedience, and there's a reason civilians don't have the same.

You obviously have no concept of what boot camp is really for. It really is no different in concept than any educational program, just more zealous.

For instance: A marine is ordered to move from Point A to point B.
I am told "I need software to do this."

How about this instead:

A Marine is told to figure out how to and portect a convoy stretching 100 miles over uneven and contested terrain that is not entirely known in support of a tank battalion occupying 200 square miles, but we never know exactly where in that area the tanks need to be at any time but they always have to be refueled.

You being told to clean the Cheeto cumbs off your office chair.

[Asher]

Originally posted by ramseya
I really didn't realize that the sales guys in your office conducted liaison with military and government agencies to provide force protection information.

Now you do. One of our biggest clients is the MoD of the UK and DoD in the US. One of our contracts is actually to design software to power a "21st century staging room", a polite word for "war room".

I didn't know they conducted terrorism threat analysis and anti-terrorism awareness classes, and interrogated prisoners-of-war.

They obviously don't interrogate PoWs, but given the US' track record for that right now I'm not sure you want to be bragging about who is responsible for that.

You're ably demonstrating the lack of intelligence most marines have. Obviously the duties performed on the job of the a Marine-specific task will not be replicated in the real world, but that does not mean that the basic requirements to perform those tasks are not the same. In this case, they're almost spot on what we look for in technical sales people.

[ramseya]

Asher:

I don't think you get just how selective something like Intel is. I'm praying I'll be able to get it for my MOS when I'm done basic training but of a typical company of ~150 newly commissioned second lieutenants, on average, only 4 would get Ground Intel, 4 would get Signals Intel, and 1 would get Human Intel.

I guess the Marines are "The Few" for a reason

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
You are smart enough to realize that distinction is irrelevant.

I am smart enough to recognize that the civilian world fosters more original and free thought than the obedience-heavy military.

Niether do Marines.

If Marines cannot kill people, I'm not sure what their point is.

You obviously have no concept of what boot camp is really for. It really is no different in concept than any educational program, just more zealous.

You've obviously never studied any social psychology. You are apparently very naive about the fundamentals of how a military actually works, which is funny because you're part of it.

How about this instead:

A Marine is told to figure out how to and portect a convoy stretching 100 miles over uneven and contested terrain that is not entirely known in support of a tank battalion occupying 200 square miles, but we never know exactly where in that area the tanks need to be at any time but they always have to be refueled.

You being told to clean the Cheeto cumbs off your office chair.

That's a pretty silly example because we hire a cleaning staff to clean the Cheeto crumbs.

In all seriousness, your example is ridiculous. How often do such requests come in, and how exactly does every marine involved need to think about that? It seems to me that 1 out of every 200 or so Marines need to think about that. Even then, that kind of "challenge" is no more intellectually rigorous than everyday tasks as a professional civilian.

You're finding a contrived situation where someone in the marine command structure needs to think a little bit, then acting like such kind of planning requires "elite" thought (when it actually doesn't) and also pretending that it is a common process to all marines (when it is not). The vast majority of marines simply do what they're told and how they're told. In the civilian world, unless you're working at a minimum wage type job, there's far more room for original thought and procedure...and that's entirely the point you keep missing.

[Asher]

Originally posted by ramseya
Asher:

I don't think you get just how selective something like Intel is.

Stop ****ing with me. You said to join the marines to be elite. Now you're reframing your argument to talk about a perhaps elite segment OF the marines. This is a very different argument.

I guess the Marines are "The Few" for a reason

Because most people realize it's not the best career move...

Don't pretend that Marines are elite. Navy SEALS and their equivalent are elite units of their various branches, but not all marines are elite in any sense of the world. Most of them are far from elite...ditto for the Navy, Army, etc.

[Patroklos]

I see you missed the point completely.

No Asher, I totally got it and drowned it. Being a deformed runt quadriplegic of a point it was very easy.

How many years did you?

How astute of you! Who here wants to comment on each of our relative knowledge between myself and Asher on what an actual Marine does?

Have you ever worked with a Marine in any capacity Asher? Observed one at work? Anything at all?

**** off with this kind of stall tactic, it pisses me off. Deal with the meat of the argument. Use that intelligence of yours that you've honed swabbing the deck of a rusty ship in the middle of nowhere.

You have no argument. You are basically falling into the same hole you trapped Gepap in earlier, which is weird.

I obviously don't know civilian marine intel officers -- what I said was they have equivalent intellectual requirements to those in the civilian world.

1.) Not relevant.

2.) Why are you only listing intellectual requirements? Are Olympic swimmers not elite?

That is NOT A WORD. A common mistake by common people who are NOT ELITE.

Did I claim I was elite?

Now you're reframing the argument. If this is about being "elite in the field", then every field ever is elite. That's a stunningly insightful commentary from our intellectual Navy comrade.

No Asher, the just means every field where it is possible to meaningfully differentiate yourself from your peers has elites within it.

[ramseya]

Because a lot of people realize it's not the best career move...

There's a lot of former Marines who had great careers... how about Jon Corzine, former Chairman and CEO of Goldman Sachs, former US Senator, and current Governor of New Jersey?