Take THAT religious nutters!

[Zanarkand]

Are you saying that people made gravity, atoms, molecules, elements, energy, chemicals, thermodynamics and so on and son on? I thought they only discovered stuff that was aready there. Apparently we really rock.

Wow..I really hope you're joking, cause if you're not, you truly are the most inattentive person I've ever met.

[Zanarkand]

Jesus, another account where there's probably a shred of truth in the bible but the whole account has been wildly exaggerated or just plain lied about.

And this you just happen to know 100%? That's impressive. In fact, that would either make you omniscient, or just ignorant. And since no man on earth is all-knowing, I'll go with the last one. Just because not EVERY single thing in the Bible is proven by science, you'll call the entire Bible rubbish?
That is highly unlogical. No, the great flood is not proven (even though many scientists and biologists believe that there are things that indicate that this happened). And neither is the resurrection. But do you honestly think God will let mankind prove that He exists, or not? If He did, he would remove mankinds free will. The freedom to choose to believe in Him.
Mankind will NEVER prove that God doesn't exists, nor that He does exists. In the end, it's a matter of faith.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Zanarkand


And this you just happen to know 100%? That's impressive. In fact, that would either make you omniscient, or just ignorant. And since no man on earth is all-knowing, I'll go with the last one. Just because not EVERY single thing in the Bible is proven by science, you'll call the entire Bible rubbish?

No, I don't know everything, but at least I can be critical of all sources. The Bible has to be taken on face value - it is an ancient text that was written, and is not even an eye witness account.

That is highly unlogical. No, the great flood is not proven (even though many scientists and biologists believe that there are things that indicate that this happened). And neither is the resurrection. But do you honestly think God will let mankind prove that He exists, or not? If He did, he would remove mankinds free will. The freedom to choose to believe in Him.
Mankind will NEVER prove that God doesn't exists, nor that He does exists. In the end, it's a matter of faith.

I am an atheist, therefore, I don't think God exists...and I will continue to work on that premise until proven otherwise, because faith is not a sufficient basis for acknowledging something as correct. You need evidence.

As Nietzsche once said, "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything".

[Whaleboy]

Mankind will NEVER prove that God doesn't exists, nor that He does exists. In the end, it's a matter of faith.

But that faith is trying to teach itself to kids, in science lessons no less.

If faith wants to make a scientific claim it had better be able to back itself up against the same rigorous logic that other scientific propositions (such as evolution, tectonic plates, the earth being round and orbiting the sun) have gone through.

The first step is to establish a foothold for god in the burden of proof. You say god exists, I say where's your argument? Where's your evidence?

You say that we'll never prove god doesn't exist (I'd disagree with that but that's another story). Why do people still try to foist him on people in that case, as though it were scientific truth?

[Jon Miller]

That isn't the issue Whaleboy.

The issue is that there are certain things, science, that the university wants taught. If they are teaching other things (religion), those scientific things aren't being taught.

This has nothing to do with some specific weakness of faith or proof or evidence. The scientific evidence against the existence of God is no greater than the scientific evidence in favor of the existence of God.

Many people have great arguments in favor of the existence of God, and even personal evidence. The fact that you doubt them has no bearing on this argument. This is about what should be taught in science class. The university requires standard science to be taught in science class. ID/etc isn't commonly accepted science, so a class teaching it does not count as teaching science.

JM

[Zanarkand]

No, I don't know everything, but at least I can be critical of all sources.

Of course you can, but there's a difference between being critical, and just saying the entire thing is wrong.

The Bible has to be taken on face value - it is an ancient text that was written, and is not even an eye witness account.

It should be pointed out that both John, Matthew, Mark and Luke witnessed the miracles of Jesus.

[Zanarkand]

If faith wants to make a scientific claim it had better be able to back itself up against the same rigorous logic that other scientific propositions

Personally, I don't really pay much attention to whether or not faith makes a scientific claim. And you shouldn't really use evolution as an example there, since evolution hasn't been proven.

You say god exists, I say where's your argument? Where's your evidence?

I hope you're ready to quote me on that, cause I don't remember having said such a thing. I have said I believe God exist, but I don't go around telling athiests that they are dumbasses, like atheists do towards christians. Where's my evidence? Well, I don't have anything else than personal evidence. But even if I had evidence, you wouldn't believe me anyway, and you know that yourself. I have felt the presence of the Lord, and I have seen and heard alot of things that I'm sure science would have a hard time explaining. But of course, there's no point in talking about those things, since I have no scientific evidence, and if I did, people wouldn't believe it anyway.

Why do people still try to foist him on people

Yeah, it has always been us who have foisted our opinions on others. What is this thread called again? Right, "Take that, religious nutters". Very cute. But please, let us all ignore that, cause it's the christians who are supposed to be dumbarses, even though there is not a single thread on this forum where a christians have insulted atheists for not believing in God. Atheists ask me why I foist my opinion on them, which I'm honestly not, but I'm more interested in knowing why so many people talk **** about christians just for believing in God.
When I preach the gospel, I approach someone, ask them if they want to hear a bit about the Bible. Some are interested, and some are not. And if they're not, that's cool. So I'm getting pretty pissed when atheists are accusing me of foisting my opinion on others, when it's clearly the other way around.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Zanarkand
It should be pointed out that both John, Matthew, Mark and Luke witnessed the miracles of Jesus.

I ain't touching the actual biblical-scholarship aspects of this, but "both" just doesn't work with four names. Only two. This part of your post hurts my eyes.

[Jon Miller]

He probably meant something like both John and Mathew, and than Luke and Mark talked to those who had first hand experience.

JM

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
He probably meant something like both John and Mathew, and than Luke and Mark talked to those who had first hand experience.

JM

no, it probably means he has a poor grasp of grammar.

[Zanarkand]

Very cute that the only thing in the whole post you comment, is one single grammatical error. I'm not an american, so my grammar isn't always perfect. Get used to it.

[rah]

OK, back in my college days Dave, Geoff, and myself were doing acid late one night at a state park. We all saw a strange light that could only have been a UFO. We were all so convinced we wrote it down and put it in a time capsule. 1000 years later someone opened it and declared that since we had all witnessed it, UFO must exist. It was quite a religious event for us. So much so that we started a religion based on that event.
We collected millions of dollars in donations.


Sorry, not what I'd consider scientific proof.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by rah
OK, back in my college days Dave, Geoff, and myself were doing acid late one night at a state park. We all saw a strange light that could only have been a UFO. We were all so convinced we wrote it down and put it in a time capsule. 1000 years later someone opened it and declared that since we had all witnessed it, UFO must exist. It was quite a religious event for us. So much so that we started a religion based on that event.
We collected millions of dollars in donations.


Sorry, not what I'd consider scientific proof.

I've seen strange lights with other people also, and no acid.

[rah]

Ok, no acid for you
But if you claimed you had seen the miracles of Jesus, I wouldn't consider it proof either.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by Zanarkand
I'm not an american

Not sure why I assumed that you were. Maybe it's the American flag in all of your posts.

the only thing in the whole post you comment

Fair enough. Honestly, I'm tired of this whole debate. You and BK and several other seemingly intelligent people seem to believe in intelligent design, or at least seem to believe that the teaching of intelligent design deserves the same respect as the teaching of science. I find this completely ridiculous. I find the fact that people are arguing that faith-based science should = real actual sciece infuriating. Trying to equate the bible with science is so patently absurd, that it's difficult to believe that reasonable people can continue trying to make the argument, despite the copious evidence that they can. Obviously, a non-believer arguing with a religious person is futile, so I guess I resorted to picking on your grammar as a last resort.

I really have no problem with Christians -- whatever works for you is alright by me, and all that jazz. But faith/belief is a personal thing, and it should stay a personal thing. Don't try to put it in my schools, my goverment, my workplace, etc. For example, if you (not you personally, the general you) literally believe that the meek will inherit the earth, go ahead and be meek and await your inheritance, more power to you. Just don't think you can legislate mandatory meekness classes into public schools.