It's war.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by EPW
The US would not allow a pro-Russian Georgian government; not as long as the oil pipeline is there.

Real question is what would the US do about it? The timing is awful between the Iraq commitments and the election comming up and Bush being a lame duck for six months. It's almost as if someone planned it .

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Lancer
Georgia should have kept quiet, put up with the provocations, and let Russia have the pieces that didn't want to be part of Georgia anyway while at the same time achieving full NATO membership. Then, get a brigade of Germans, a brigade of Americans and French and Brits to do border duty and see if anyone still dares to shell them. As it is, Georgia might well be no more after this.

Russia isn't going to annex Georgia. Seriously, why would they? If they had wanted it that badly, they wouldn't have let it go 1991 in the first place. No, they will do just what they say, drive the Georgians out of South Ossetia and be done with it.

The situation is quite similar to the hypothetical case of Serbia trying to "reinstate constitutional order" with military means in Kosovo in 2006, except that South Ossetia has its autonomy longer and an even larger percentage of South Ossetians wants to defect from Georgia than Kosovars did.

As much as it may baffle my fellow westerners, but there are really people who want to defect to Russia so badly, that they're ready to die for it. Why not let them have it?

On a sidenote, it amuses me to no end to see the same people, who didn't tire to condemn China for "reinstating constitutional order" in Tibet a while ago, now demand the right for Georgia to do the same. Too bad that the Tibetians didn't have a champion to fight for them.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Maniac


Source?

Check wiki for South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by onodera

We hope to gain a new, pro-Russian Georgian president.

When president Kaczynski claimed this all mess is an attempt from Russia to change the authorities in Tblisi, I thought he is way exagerrating.
But onodera actually confirms this... hm.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Harovan

On a sidenote, it amuses me to no end to see the same people, who didn't tire to condemn China for "reinstating constitutional order" in Tibet a while ago, now demand the right for Georgia to do the same. Too bad that the Tibetians didn't have a champion to fight for them.

Hypocrisy is the West's favourite vice. I mean, how can any rational person take Bush seriously when he says that Russia is illegally invading another state? All it is about is power and interests, and these people will shamelessly contradict themselves when it suits them. The media for the most part will follow along as they long ago opted for the lube instead of serving the public interest.

The only useful function of both to our species is as lamp post decorations.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Harovan

As much as it may baffle my fellow westerners, but there are really people who want to defect to Russia so badly, that they're ready to die for it. Why not let them have it?

The answer to that last question is simple. 1) It opens the doors to a whole bunch of other land grabs in the former Soviet Union risking destabilizing the whole region as every ethnic group rushes to redraw the map. 2) The two votes asking Russia to annex South Ossetia have been ruled invalid by just about every international organization since ethnic Georgian refugees were not allowed to vote. 3) It is internationally recognized as a part of Georgia and there has been no legal vote to separate it.

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Agathon


Hypocrisy is the West's favourite vice. I mean, how can any rational person take Bush seriously when he says that Russia is illegally invading another state? All it is about is power and interests, and these people will shamelessly contradict themselves when it suits them. The media for the most part will follow along as they long ago opted for the lube instead of serving the public interest.

Which doesn't mean the Russians aren't illegally invading another state...

[PLATO]

Originally posted by dannubis


Which doesn't mean the Russians aren't illegally invading another state...

Yeah...Aggie has such a hatred for the US and Bush that he can't see the issue of the day. Hating Americans is so 2006. Hating Russians is what is cool in 2008.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lancer
Georgia should have kept quiet, put up with the provocations, and let Russia have the pieces that didn't want to be part of Georgia anyway while at the same time achieving full NATO membership. Then, get a brigade of Germans, a brigade of Americans and French and Brits to do border duty and see if anyone still dares to shell them. As it is, Georgia might well be no more after this.

Georgia would not even be considered for NATO membership as long as there were any outstanding disputes about its' borders, so as long as South Ossetia and Abkhazia remained in their legally murky state, Georgia was never going to get NATO membership.

Personally, I think the Georgians took a chance at settling the South Ossetian issue while they thought Russia wasn't looking, and were caught off guard by how hard the Russians reacted.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap


Georgia would not even be considered for NATO membership as long as there were any outstanding disputes about its' borders, so as long as South Ossetia and Abkhazia remained in their legally murky state, Georgia was never going to get NATO membership.

Personally, I think the Georgians took a chance at settling the South Ossetian issue while they thought Russia wasn't looking, and were caught off guard by how hard the Russians reacted.

I think this hits the nail on the head. In fact, Saakashvili said something about the timing the other day I think.

[Serb]

Originally posted by PLATO
Georgia is a soverign Country. South Ossetia is part of that Country. By UN charter, no country can invade another without UNSC approval (at the very least some sort of arguable UN cover like 1441 was for the US).

1) Sure, but what right you had to invide Iraq? What right you had to bombard Yougoslavia? Did UNSC approved your actions? The answer is no.
You violate the international law and don't give a damn about The UN whenever you wish. You (the US of A) are the brightest example of the country-agressor who acts in accordance with a "right of the strongest", not in accordance with the international law.
2) South Osetia is not a part of Georgia. At least it’s not as simple as you present this. The citizens of South Osetia are not citizens of Georgia and never were. Over 90% of them have Russian passports.
I think you guys need some basic facts about the story of conflict.
First of all, there are no South Osetians or North Osetians. There is only Osetia, a single people that was divided artificially during the Soviet times. In USSR the North Osetian autonomous Republic was a part of RSFSR (wich now is known as the Russian Federation), while South Osetia was an autonomous region of GSSR (wich is now known as Georgia). That division was purely artificial (partly due to stupidity of politburo oldfarts who just couldn't foresee the collapse of the USSR, partly by economical and administrative reasons). Despite that Osetians and Georgians always hated each other. There was no division between Osetians as an ethinc group (to South and North) only a stupid administrative division.
In 1991, when USSR has collapsed the newly independent Georgia immideantly canceled the South Osetian autonomy and moved its army to South Osetia. That's how the first war began.
The only reason for that war was a Georgian decision to cancel the Osetinian autonomy.
The Georgians commited innumerous war crimes during that war. Basically that was a genocide. The same war as war at Balkans.
With help of volunteeres from North Osetia South Osetians repeled the Georgian invasion and in 1992 in Moscow was signed a ceasefire treaty between South Osetia and Georgia. In accordance with this treaty there should be a peacekeeping force in the zone of conflict that should consist of Russian, Osetian and Georgian troops. Since 1992 Russian troops maintain a peacekeeping mission in South Oseatia. Their presence in South Osetia is approved by UN, so it's absolutely legal in accordance with the international law.
Since 1992, and especially since when Saakashvilly took the power, Georgia was preparing for the new war. Saakashvilii regime spent 10% of that now very poor country (which once was one, if not the most prosperios republic of the USSR) to its military budget. The Georgia rebuild its military force and re-trained its soldiers thanks to the help (often free of charge) of USA, Turkey and other countries (Ukraine, Czech Republic, Israel and others). Georgia constanly demanded replacement of Russian peacekeepers with NATO peacekeepers, it's quite obvious what for they wanted that. They wanted and still want to resolve the South Osetian problem through force. But UN always rejected their demands and prolongated the Russian peacekeeping forces mandate in South Osetia.

Once again - the Russian peacekeeping forces are staying in South Osetia since the end of the first war, because the United Nations send them there to maintain peace and prevent the violence. And that is pure and undeniable FACT

And since then, the Russian peacekeepers was the only force that prevented another bloodbath.
But, since all Georgian efforts to withdraw the Russian peacekeepers failed, they decided to attack regardless of their precence. Probably they hoped that Russian peacekeepers will act like NATO peacekeepers do in case of major war - stay away from fire, save their own arses and let the locals to commite whatever attrocities they wish. I bet, Saakashvilii also hoped that his well-trained and well-equiped army will crush semi-militian South Osetian army and occupy South Osetia within 24 hours, before Russia, or anyone else can interfere, and then declare that South Osetian problem is Georgian internal affair and it is sucessfully solved and the same crap. The fact that Saakashvilli is preparing a major offensive was clear since Georgia has started recognisance flights of its unmanned aircrafts over South Oseatia some time ago.

That was a clear violation of 1992 cease-fire agreements and a clear indication that Georgia is preparing for another war.

Now, after 3 days of war, it is clear that Saakashvilii’s blitzkreig plan has failed.
The Russian peacekeeping (UN approved) contingent did what they were suppose to do - to maintain peace in the region. They have been attacked by Georgian forces and took casualities. The Georgians warned Russian peacekeepers to not interferee into their war with Osetia and just step back. However, the Russian peacekeepers are not NATO’s clowns. They did they job, despite the owerhelming number superiority of Saakashvility troops.

The attack vs. peacekeepers is an act of war and a war crime.

The destruction of South Osetian capital and several villages (which now are completely destroyed) are the acts of war and a war crimes.

The Georgians bombarded the South Osetian capital with heavy artillery and MRLSes. And since I know that many of you will start their "blah-blah-blah" about Russians did the same towards Grozny, I must say that during the Chechen war the Russian troops surrounded the city, then created “humanitarian corridors” to let civilians quit the city, and only after that started to storm the storm of Grozny.
Georgian acted like their big teacher did in Iraq – just bombarded the city without a warning (who cares about those “rag heads”/Osetians?). That was a surprise attack vs. CIVILIANS. The South Osetian capital now lays in ruins, its civil blocks, water pumping statins, powerplants, bakeries, schools, hospitals, institutes, etc, its entire infrastructure is completely destroyed. Tskhivaly is a Stalingrad now. Complete ruins. Over 1500 of its inhabitans are killed. They were CIVILIANS and Georgian army hited them for purpose. That is a war crime according to the Genueva convention.

The man who started this massacre is a war criminal. He should face the international tribunal. Though I’m absolutely sure that USA will protect its pet dog Saakashvilii like it protected its Albanian, Bosnian or whatever pet dogs who massacred Serbs during the Balkan wars. Hell, you even have no idea about attrocities commited by Muslims towards Serb Christians during the Balkan wars. All you know is that Serbs are demons. Your brainwashing media wins a “Pravda editorial prize" for any conflict where NATO is involved.

Russia may (or may not?) have legitimate reasons to intervene.

Please answer three simple questions:
1) Would USA intervene in case if its peacekeeping forces were under attack and there were casualities among US peacekeepers?
2) Would USA send reinforcements to its peacekeepers to save them and civilians, whose those peacekeepers are suppose to protect?
3) Would USA intervene if over 1500 of its citizens were killed by agressor who bombards a city with heavy artillery and MRLSes, esp, when it’s clear that this number would grow in case if US will not intervene?

Russia has UN mandate to keep the peace in South Oseatia, and sice the existing Russian peacekeeping forces were clearly not enough to stop the massacre started by the Georgians, we brought reinforcements. We are doing what UN suppose us to do – stopping the violence in the zone of conflict, but since Saakashvilii started a full-scale war and launched a major offense, and many of our peacekeepers are already killed, they need reinforcemnts to drive the Georgian troops from South Osetia and to stop massacre of Osetian CIVILIANS (who are the Russian citizens, btw).
Can you imagine a situation when USA just let anyone to massacre 1500 of its citizens and do nothing about that? And in case if it not intervene that nomber could grow as much as 70 000?

If they do, then they should immediately put forth a UNSC resolution in emergency session.

We did so immediately!
But despite it’s already a third emergency session, UNSC still don’t do a thing to stop the genocide (mostly thanks to your ambassador, but it’s not surprising really, since Saakashvilii is your lackey and without your clear “GO!” signal he would never invaded South Osetia).

If they do not, then they should withdraw their forces this instant.

In your dreams. We have a UN mandate to keep the peace in the zone of Georgian-South Oseatian conflict. If our peacekeeping forces are under attack and took casualities, we send enough forces to protect our peacekeepers and civilians. Simple as that.
That is the same thing you would do if you were walking in our shoes.

Short of that, the West should begin sanctions until all unauthorized Russian troops are withdrawn.

Do whatever you wish, you lying hypocrite agressors. We are the good side in this conflict.

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Serb

Do whatever you wish, you lying hypocrite aggressors. We are the good side in this conflict.

Nope.

The good side in this conflict are the civilians of SO.

You are just another aggressive power-playing state. Not one hair better than the US.

Piss off.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Harovan


Russia isn't going to annex Georgia. Seriously, why would they? If they had wanted it that badly, they wouldn't have let it go 1991 in the first place. No, they will do just what they say, drive the Georgians out of South Ossetia and be done with it.

The situation is quite similar to the hypothetical case of Serbia trying to "reinstate constitutional order" with military means in Kosovo in 2006, except that South Ossetia has its autonomy longer and an even larger percentage of South Ossetians wants to defect from Georgia than Kosovars did.

As much as it may baffle my fellow westerners, but there are really people who want to defect to Russia so badly, that they're ready to die for it. Why not let them have it?

On a sidenote, it amuses me to no end to see the same people, who didn't tire to condemn China for "reinstating constitutional order" in Tibet a while ago, now demand the right for Georgia to do the same. Too bad that the Tibetians didn't have a champion to fight for them.

Personally I did'nt do as you say. I suggested that Georgia allow those pieces that wanted to be part of Russia to go be part of Russia. Self determination. Lets see if Russia believes in that. My guess is... they take Georgia. My opinion... they are just using this time for airstrikes and to bring up a few more divisions. Likely the Mongolian divisions among them. The guys who won't blink at an order to make it hurt, do it ugly, teach a lesson. We'll see, I hope I'm wrong. The airstrikes are ramping up though, that's usually phase one.

[Saras]

its amazing what several years of no independent media and a lack of a culture of critical analysis of own government can do to a man.

[onodera]

Originally posted by Serb
Tskhivaly is a Stalingrad now.

Do you think we'll pull off another operation Saturn?

Also, WB!