Omar Khadr's Interrogation Videos

[Felch]

Originally posted by Asher
The US military considered him a "treasure trove" of information as he's one of the few captives who have physically met Osama. You don't think that warrants torture while others do?

It's funny that you can make that judgment from all of your knowledge about the kid. From the US soldiers who have been with him daily for six years to this Canadian interrogators, the consensus was -- and I quote -- he is a "good kid".

Neither of us know what really happened. I'm guessing he was sleep deprived, psychologically stressed and beaten up. It's not pleasant, it's not legal, but it's not much worse than what some people go through in high school. If there were evidence that he was being beaten with lead pipes, hooked to a car battery, having nails pounded through his feet, or anything like that, it'd be a different story. Do you have evidence that he was severely harmed? Or was he just being mistreated.

I'm trying to differentiate here between beating somebody up, and torture. I get bothered when people cheapen the term to mean any sort of misconduct. Same with genocide. Nowadays it seems like anytime a few people are killed, some alarmist is calling it genocide. A few people being killed is murder, perhaps ethnic cleansing. But it's a long way from trying to wipe out an entire race of people. Ditto for punching somebody versus hanging them by their thumbs.

Again, if they really felt that he's a good kid, he'd probably be released. The military is nothing if not pragmatic. I don't know why a good kid would be held at such expense.

As far as the Stanford experiment goes, it shows that torture and mistreatment is the norm. The fact that the US Army doesn't torture everybody, the fact that torture is relatively rare, is something to recognize.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Wait wait wait. You yourself told us in this thread he was of no value intelligence wise, but now he is so valuable he MUST have been tortured.

I'm telling you what the military said, not what the reality was...

The military said he's a treasure trove of information. They haven't gotten anything of value out of him, but they're holding him just incase he decides to "start talking"...

[Asher]

It's not pleasant, it's not legal, but it's not much worse than what some people go through in high school.

Felch on Gitmo.

My new sig, thanks.

As far as the Stanford experiment goes, it shows that torture and mistreatment is the norm. The fact that the US Army doesn't torture everybody, the fact that torture is relatively rare, is something to recognize.

I like how you know for a fact that this doesn't go on all the time, when from what we're hearing from the Red Cross and other observers it is very much the norm.

Again, if they really felt that he's a good kid, he'd probably be released.

As you probably do not know, it is not the decision of the actual footsoldiers who deal with him to make.

[Sirotnikov]

he was supposedly denied medical care for said bullet wound (surgeries needed to repair his shoulder) until he gave intelligence

that's logical unless the injuries are life threatening

[Theben]

Originally posted by Felch

Thanks. I don't know who John Dean is (Jimmy Dean's brother?) or what RWA is, but I'm always happy to impress people with my capacity for insanity.

He's a conservative who was demonized by Gordon Liddy, and later the far right in general. RWA (right wing authoritarian) followers often listen to their leadership w/o displaying much critical thinking about the message. It's what allows for the Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world.
Of course you could reply that he's just saying what I want to hear, and you'd probably be right. But at least I'm critical enough and honest enough to admit it.

I'd like to remind you though, that while we know about the Rape of Nanking, and Auschwitz, and the gulags, we also know the name of Lt. Calley, and the story of My Lai. We know his name because he wasn't just another lieutenant doing what everybody else was doing, but was instead an exception. The fact that the US Army keeps these sorts of incidents to a minimum is to be applauded, especially in light of all the research that shows how easy abuse is.

It's all in the way you look at it.

Interesting that you'd point out Calley, b/c one of his complaints at his trial was that he was being scapegoated for something that, to paraphrase, "everyone else was doing" with the go-ahead from their commanders.
So again, I'm not sure how 'minimized' these incidents are.

[Patroklos]

1. Torture has been used at Guantanemo. Both the presumptive GOP candidate and the DOJ have stated waterboarding is torture. The International Red Cross has documented torture there and is the reason they and other organizations are accusing the Bush administration of war crimes. Just b/c the Bushies say "waterboarding isn't torture" doesn't make it true, even if they say it three times.

Is the obvious fallacy of your statement above not readily apparent to you?

2. Either he's a soldier, in which case he is entitled to Geneva Convention law, or he's a civilian, in which case he should be locked up in and tried in civilian court. There is no third "terrorist" category, despite what many on the looney right believe.

If he is a POW, then we can hold him at least this long scot free, as per the Geneva Conventions.

If he is not a POW, as per the Geneva Conventions we can execute him for espionage. Oh us EVAL Americans for imprisoning him instead on his lighter GC violations.

3. Canada has every right to have him extradited to face trial in their court system.

They have every right to ask, the US has no obligation to oblige.

They haven't gotten anything of value out of him

Could you please stop making things up? Thanks.

that's logical unless the injuries are life threatening

That information comes from another detainee of course and is not corroborated, shock. Asher of course believes this guy with no ulterior motives whatsoever is a medical expert and would know what surgeries the kid needed in the first place, as well as was allowed to eaves drop on a interrogation. And there is no way good cop/bad cop wasn't used either, obviously the surgeons themselves were in on the conspiracy.

And the ridiculous truther level crap continues...

[Felch]

Originally posted by Theben
1. Torture has been used at Guantanemo. Both the presumptive GOP candidate and the DOJ have stated waterboarding is torture. The International Red Cross has documented torture there and is the reason they and other organizations are accusing the Bush administration of war crimes. Just b/c the Bushies say "waterboarding isn't torture" doesn't make it true, even if they say it three times.
This of course doesn't even account for other accusations of other means of torture.

I agree with you on waterboarding being torture. I'm against torture in general, mostly because I understand it is ineffective. It's generally a result of poor training and discipline. However, my opposition is based on efficacy and reciprocity. Since the Muslims who have captured Americans have been awfully willing to mistreat them, to the point of beheadings, I'm inclined to ignore what happens to the Muslims captured by Americans.

In other words, if Muslims treated American prisoners properly, I'd be opposed to their torture. As it is, I don't care what happens to those bastards.

2. Either he's a soldier, in which case he is entitled to Geneva Convention law, or he's a civilian, in which case he should be locked up in and tried in civilian court. There is no third "terrorist" category, despite what many on the looney right believe.

WRONG. There is a third category, people who are combatants (hence not civilian) but who violate the laws of war (and hence are not protected by Geneva). This is the category that spies fall under, for example. The rules exist for a reason - mostly to prevent harm to civilians. We already discussed this.

3. Canada has every right to have him extradited to face trial in their court system.

Maybe, I'm not a lawyer, but it hardly matters. Unless Canada is actually willing to go hard about this (Pulling out of Afghanistan for instance) we're not likely to care about what right they have.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Patroklos
And you know this because of your extenisve time in and with the military, right?

Right?

No, because of my extensive time in reality. You should come visit sometime.

[Theben]

So now he's a spy? It just gets better and better.

Is the obvious fallacy of your statment above not readily apparent to you?

Your obvious lack of an answer is.

[Asher]

Can someone quote the part of the Geneva Conventions that say it's okay to do whatever the **** you want to 15 year olds? I missed that part.

The last time I checked, everyone -- POW or unlawful combatant or civilian -- is entitled to humane treatment.

[Patroklos]

No, because of my extensive time in reality. You should come visit sometime.

Ah, so to recap you are talking out of your ass. Thanks for clearing that up.

Can someone quote the part of the Geneva Conventions that say it's okay to do whatever the **** you want to 15 year olds? I missed that part.

And Asher's meltdown continues unabated...

[Theben]

Thanks for answering my questions.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Asher

It's not pleasant, it's not legal, but it's not much worse than what some people go through in high school.

Felch on Gitmo.

My new sig, thanks.

I like how you know for a fact that this doesn't go on all the time, when from what we're hearing from the Red Cross and other observers it is very much the norm.

I'm unaware of these accusations that it's the norm. I'm not certain of the sources for these accusations, their biases, or really anything else. I do know that we have a free press which has uncovered several abuses, and that those abuses have been dealt with (not perfectly, but they've been dealt with to some degree).

As you probably do not know, it is not the decision of the actual footsoldiers who deal with him to make.

You're right about that. However, the people who do make that decision rely in part on the guards to be their eyes and ears. So I'm guessing if he was really a good kid for six years, it'd eventually show. I might be wrong, but I'm inclined to give the Army the benefit of the doubt.

[Patroklos]

Your obvious lack of an answer is.

If you had the ability to form coherent thoughts it would help.

In any case, just because one or some detainees were mistreated does not mean all were. You fail.

So....lets recap shall we? The kid cried, Asher and Theban's hearts broke, so the kid is innocent. Sums things up quite nicely.

Thanks for answering my questions.

Since you obviously don't realize it, "?" signifies a question. You didn't ask any. I will let you try again if you want.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos



And Asher's meltdown continues unabated...

So you can't quote it?

You should focus on the part that says all captives deserve to be treated humanely, regardless of POW status.