Omar Khadr's Interrogation Videos

[Felch]

Originally posted by Asher
UNBELIEVABLE.

What unbelievable? That somebody can surrender? He had months to find an American and explain his case. Instead he stuck with his family. And his family stuck with Bin Laden.

You're the one condoning torture of a child and indefinite imprisonment.

Fine. My apathy makes me a monster. I'm not supporting it, but by virtue of not giving a ****, because I'm not out beating a drum and singing Kumbaya, I'm somehow a terrrrrible person, whose views and opinions are rendered invalid. Happy?

He's not even been found guilty of anything.

It's a war, not a criminal case. He's being held for the duration of hostilities or until we decide to release him. That's the way it works.

He was in a house that came under attack by American forces, was bombed by American jets, then assaulted by American soldiers

His family was deeply involved in AQ. Bin Laden attended his sister's wedding. Don't act like this was not a legitimate target.

and has been in jail for six years and counting without a trial. His US captors don't even think he's a threat and think the stay is doing more harm than good for him. The Canadian interrogators don't think he's an extremist either.

Again, he'll be held as long as hostilities continue or until we release him. If what you say is true, he may be released soon. But that's a military matter, one for the US to decide.

Again, you seem to be painting this kid as one of the pilots on 9/11 but the reality is he's a kid in an impossible situation.

I never tied him to 9/11. He is involved with the same organization though. And I don't sympathize with his plight. He's a kid who fought against the United States. Plenty of otherwise innocent German kids were drafted by the Nazis and had to spend years in the US and Canada as POWs. That's just how wars work.

[Asher]

I know you're not saying he's a POW.

You think it's alright to torture children and hold them indefinitely for years without trial.

Let's say just we disagree on the value of human life.

Why aren't the American pilots who dropped munitions on Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan serving life terms in prison, by the way? That's a war crime, I'm sure of it. If anything, their stupidity is less of an excuse than Khadr's situation of having a **** family.

[Theben]

Wow, Felch, I knew we didn't agree on things, but you've really shown your ass in this thread. You and Pat must be a couple of those RWA sheep that John Dean wrote about. The cognitive dissonance that goes on in your heads, if properly harnessed, could power small cities.

[Patroklos]

As opposed to the wishful thinking displayed in this thread by Asher?

Again, ZERO evidence, nadda, nothing. Asher actually admitted this himself above. You all have fallen victim to the "SAVE THE CHILDREN" scam usually reserved for the ignorant masses. Congratulations.

Crying children, the best way to make people abandon all reason

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos


As opposed to the wishful thinking displayed in this thread by Asher?

Again, ZERO evidence, nadda, nothing. Asher actually admitted this himself above. You all have fallen victim to the "SAVE THE CHILDREN" scam usually reserved for the ignorant masses. Congratulations.

Crying children, the best way to make people abandon all reason

The ZERO EVIDENCE thing is actually key. The only evidence the US military has, by their own admission, is a statement saying he was there when a soldier died. Other evidence they have has witnesses saying someone else killed that soldier.

There's no reason for him to be held on the charges he's being held on.

You're holding somebody captive because their dad was an *******. You don't see a problem with that, and that's because you're an example of why the US military is ****ed up. "Check your conscience at the door, go shoot you some towelheads! REVENGE!"

This isn't "wishful thinking" (how inappropriate is that phrase here, by the way?). This kid was interrogated by someone who was subsequently charged with and plead guilty to abusing and torturing his detainees in interrogation. He's being held for over six years and counting in a situation even the US captives who see him daily say is doing him and everyone else a disservice.

Then you come in parroting the "YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE! YOU HAVE NOTHING!" line like that makes it okay to hold someone indefinitely without trial when all evidence points to him NOT doing the thing he's accused of.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Felch
The folks at Abu Graib were misled by senior officers and intelligence into mistreating those prisoners. It was wrong, but I think you're painting with an overly broad brush.

So are the troops at Guantanemo being 'misled' now, or are they 'disiplined'? How about the people who ship off prisoners to nations that don't have scruples against torture? Don't get me wrong, I think that the majority of the military are good people, but the Abu Graib's are more prevalent than you admit.

Plus it's well known that if one gives a gun and a sense of self-importance to a person who isn't used to having it, put them in a group of like-minded people, and give them authority over another group that has been dehumanized in the 1st group's eyes, tragedy is often the result. The Rape of Nanjing. Lt. Calley. The list goes on.

Lastly, the only people backing this are the far-right lunatics in the US. No other country condones these actions and most Americans don't either. As my friend used to say, "If everyone else says you're wrong, you're probably wrong." Wise up.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Asher
I know you're not saying he's a POW.

You think it's alright to torture children and hold them indefinitely for years without trial.

I think you're overstating the scope of torture here. I think it's likely that he was abused, and mistreated, but I think that it's unlikely he was systematically tortured the way higher-profile detainees were. Roughing up prisoners isn't what the Army should be doing, but it happens, and that's life.

Let's say just we disagree on the value of human life.

That's quite possible. I'd say it depends on the life. Some people are good and should be helped, some bad and should be harmed. This kid, he's not good. He might not be bad, but it's not like the US kidnapped him while he was volunteering at a soup kitchen.

Why aren't the American pilots who dropped munitions on Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan serving life terms in prison, by the way? That's a war crime, I'm sure of it. If anything, their stupidity is less of an excuse than Khadr's situation of having a **** family.

I remember the incident, and it was regretful. But it was not a war crime. It was a drugged rampage. The senior officers who stuffed our pilots full of amphetamines and sent them out with bombs to go blow **** up should be held responsible. Otherwise, it's just like Abu Graib, with the **** rolling downhill.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Theben
Plus it's well known that if one gives a gun and a sense of self-importance to a person who isn't used to having it, put them in a group of like-minded people, and give them authority over another group that has been dehumanized in the 1st group's eyes, tragedy is often the result. The Rape of Nanjing. Lt. Calley. The list goes on.

The most alarming similarity is the Stanford Prison Experiment, which I thought Felch and everyone else would be aware of.

This is why I don't think it's as rare as Felch thinks...sad to say it's human nature.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Felch
I think you're overstating the scope of torture here. I think it's likely that he was abused, and mistreated, but I think that it's unlikely he was systematically tortured the way higher-profile detainees were.

The US military considered him a "treasure trove" of information as he's one of the few captives who have physically met Osama. You don't think that warrants torture while others do?

That's quite possible. I'd say it depends on the life. Some people are good and should be helped, some bad and should be harmed. This kid, he's not good.

It's funny that you can make that judgment from all of your knowledge about the kid. From the US soldiers who have been with him daily for six years to this Canadian interrogators, the consensus was -- and I quote -- he is a "good kid".

[Patroklos]

The ZERO EVIDENCE thing is actually key. The only evidence the US military has, by their own admission, is a statement saying he was there when a soldier died.

Which has been explained to you already is irrelevant as to 1.) whether he was tortured and 2.) whether he should be returned to Canada. Simply being there is more than enough to imprison him at least as long as he has (if you consider him a proper POW) or many years more (if he isn't and an illegal combatant).

There's no reason for him to be held on the charges he's being held on.

Actually, there is, and there are millions of cases of precedent to support it.

You're holding somebody captive because their dad was an *******. You don't see a problem with that, and that's because you're an example of why the US military is ****ed up. "Check your conscience at the door, go shoot you some towelheads! REVENGE!"

I will assume that since you have nothing relevant to say, this temper tantrum is an admission that you are SOL in this thread.

This isn't "wishful thinking" (how inappropriate is that phrase here, by the way?).

Very. For some reason you, without and evidence or even half way decent rumor, want to believe this kid was torured. "Want," because people do not bend over backwards to believe things supported by nothing unless they want to.

You do realize that you are the Ben Kenobi of this threat, right?

He's being held for over six years and counting in a situation even the US captives who see him daily say is doing him and everyone else a disservice.

You might not like that, but it is not (and you have certainly not show it is) illegal. POW or unlawful combatant, his encaseration is par for the course.

Then you come in parroting the "YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE! YOU HAVE NOTHING!" line like that makes it okay to hold someone indefinitely without trial when all evidence points to him NOT doing the thing he's accused of.

So he was not a member of AQ and was not captured in hostilities agains the US? And POWs of any character have never gotten trials Asher. If you THINK he was tortured, fine, but his imprisonment itself is nothing controversial to anyone rational and not blinded by tears that mean nothing.

The folks at Abu Graib were misled by senior officers and intelligence into mistreating those prisoners.

No, they were not. They maliciously and of their own accord decided to abuse those prisoners. Their immediate superiors are just as guilty of lack oversight.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the majority of the military are good people, but the Abu Graib's are more prevalent than you admit.

And you know this because of your extenisve time in and with the military, right?

Right?

[Felch]

Originally posted by Theben
Wow, Felch, I knew we didn't agree on things, but you've really shown your ass in this thread. You and Pat must be a couple of those RWA sheep that John Dean wrote about. The cognitive dissonance that goes on in your heads, if properly harnessed, could power small cities.

Thanks. I don't know who John Dean is (Jimmy Dean's brother?) or what RWA is, but I'm always happy to impress people with my capacity for insanity.

As far as current abuses at Gitmo, I think they're a bit inflated. It's part of the same sensationalist news that makes people think that sharks are killing hordes of beachgoers, or that children are being kidnapped left and right. Unfortunately, while those can be rebutted with published statistics, the secrecy inherent in Gitmo means it's tough to know what's really happening.

You're right about the abuse of power. There've been oodles of studies about that, and all demonstrate that ordinary people can become quite monstrous. I'd like to remind you though, that while we know about the Rape of Nanking, and Auschwitz, and the gulags, we also know the name of Lt. Calley, and the story of My Lai. We know his name because he wasn't just another lieutenant doing what everybody else was doing, but was instead an exception. The fact that the US Army keeps these sorts of incidents to a minimum is to be applauded, especially in light of all the research that shows how easy abuse is.

It's all in the way you look at it.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Patroklos


As opposed to the wishful thinking displayed in this thread by Asher?

Again, ZERO evidence, nadda, nothing. Asher actually admitted this himself above. You all have fallen victim to the "SAVE THE CHILDREN" scam usually reserved for the ignorant masses. Congratulations.

Nothing of the sort. Let me make it easy for your dissonance to resonate:

1. Torture has been used at Guantanemo. Both the presumptive GOP candidate and the DOJ have stated waterboarding is torture. The International Red Cross has documented torture there and is the reason they and other organizations are accusing the Bush administration of war crimes. Just b/c the Bushies say "waterboarding isn't torture" doesn't make it true, even if they say it three times.
This of course doesn't even account for other accusations of other means of torture.

2. Either he's a soldier, in which case he is entitled to Geneva Convention law, or he's a civilian, in which case he should be locked up in and tried in civilian court. There is no third "terrorist" category, despite what many on the looney right believe.

3. Canada has every right to have him extradited to face trial in their court system.

There. I hope that helps.

Crying children, the best way to make people abandon all reason

Why did you abandon yours?

[Patroklos]

Plus it's well known that if one gives a gun and a sense of self-importance to a person who isn't used to having it

Well then, it is a good thing GITMO is a long established and professionally staffed brig isn't it?

The Rape of Nanjing. Lt. Calley. The list goes on.

Those are opposite examples of what you are using them for. Those are examples of people who did know better willfully commiting atrocities.

Now, shall we go ahead and work out the statistical sample that makes refute your insinuation that this is the obvious result (Abu Gharib)?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Which has been explained to you already is irrelevant as to 1.) whether he was tortured and 2.) whether he should be returned to Canada. Simply being there is more than enough to imprison him at least as long as he has (if you consider him a proper POW) or many years more (if he isn't and an illegal combatant).



Actually, there is, and there are millions of cases of precedent to support it.



I will assume that since you have nothing relevant to say, this temper tantrum is an admission that you are SOL in this thread.

How out of touch with reality are you?

Very. For some reason you, without and evidence or even half way decent rumor, want to believe this kid was torured. "Want," because people do not bend over backwards to believe things supported by nothing unless they want to.

What "evidence" would suffice? There's no evidence that could be provided. Just claims and circumstantial evidence (eg, his chief interrogator admitted to torturing and abusing his captives)

You do realize that you are the Ben Kenobi of this threat, right?

The right-wing nutjob disconnected from reality?

No, that's not me. It fits someone else here, though.

[Patroklos]

How out of touch with reality are you?

Comming from the person making things up because thats how he wants them to be. Asher

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Tears, Asher's kryptonite

The US military considered him a "treasure trove" of information as he's one of the few captives who have physically met Osama. You don't think that warrants torture while others do?

Wait wait wait. You yourself told us in this thread he was of no value intelligence wise, but now he is so valuable he MUST have been tortured.

The tears have entered your brain Asher, time to take a break

It's funny that you can make that judgment from all of your knowledge about the kid. From the US soldiers who have been with him daily for six years to this Canadian interrogators, the consensus was -- and I quote -- he is a "good kid".

Which of course is irrelevant to

1.) Whether he is a POW or

2.) And illegal combatant

A lot of prison inmates seem like good guys until they tell you what they did. Of course they don't automatically activate your nurture instinct when they cry, so Asher won't fight for them.