"Well, here it goes buddy"

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
If I'd been a grand juror, I would have applied the law. You can use deadly force to protect a person or to protect your own property

A plasma television is worth more than a human life then?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok


Not sure about "murderer," but certainly it's manslaughter and this loon should not be allowed to have a gun in the future.

Murderer fits. He went out of his way to kill these people. He intentionally left his house and went after these guys to shoot them with a deadly weapon.

That's murder, Elok.

[Asher]

Originally posted by MrFun



A plasma television is worth more than a human life then?

If you ask a Texan, he'd note that the people he shot were Mexicans or of Mexican descent and they'd answer this question with "In this case, yes."

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
If I'd been a grand juror, I would have applied the law. You can use deadly force to protect a person or to protect your own property but not to protect the property of someone else.

In Texas, the law states that you can use deadly force to protect the property of another, even if the criminals are already fleeing the scene of the crime with the property. The only proviso is that you have to have some reason to believe that the other person wanted you to protect their property.

Yes, it's an idiotic law, but we are talking about Texas here.

The police told this stupid old man to stay inside and not confront the burglars. He should have listened to their common sense advice.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Mr Snuggles


If you ask a Texan, he'd note that the people he shot were Mexicans or of Mexican descent and they'd answer this question with "In this case, yes."

If you had read the article, you note that they were neither Mexican nor of Mexican decent.

Aside from the shooting itself, the national debate revolved around the fact that Ortiz and Torres were illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres had been sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999.

ACK!

[C0ckney]

i think arrian hit the nail on the head. the guy was clearly in the wrong and should have been punished. however at the same time it's hard to feel much sympathy for a couple of thieving lowlifes.

[Arrian]

The question is... manslaughter or murder? I'm leaning toward Elok's position (manslaughter).

edit - definition:

The unlawful killing of a human being without malice or premeditation, either express or implied; distinguished from murder, which requires malicious intent.

Hmm. Ashersnuggles thinks it was clearly premeditated. I see it as he clearly intended to intervene... whether he clearly intended to kill them is questionable. But quite possible. So maybe he should've been charged w/murder.

Time to show my ignorance of the law... if the state presses murder charges, can they downgrade to manslaughter mid-stream? Can one be charged with both?

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

His life wasn't in danger, the police were on the way and told him to say in side, but the guy went outside for the sole purpose of killing people. His a murderer plan and simple so lock him up.

Apparently you missed the part where the cop (who did nothing) witnessed not only the old man warn them, but also that after the warning they turned and ran towards him.

Apply your Army ROE.

[Tiamat]

I think that instead of shooting to kill the other option would have been to shoot them in the knee caps thereby taking them down which should have been the ultimate goal here. Wound them enough where they can't get up and run, let the police get there and charge them then let them stand trial.

There are many ways to take a person down without killing them. You might make them lame but it sounds to me like these guys were not the pillar's of society.

[Patroklos]

would have been to shoot them in the knee thereby taking them down which should have been the ultimate goal here.

Nobody shoots to wound in the real world. Shooting at someone with a weapon is always the exercise of deadly force, you shouldn't shoot unless you intend to kill. If you don't kill them and rather wound him to the point he no longer poses a threat warranting deadly force so be it.

[Arrian]

Pasadena police Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett said a few weeks after the shooting that a plainclothes detective had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He said the detective saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.

It appeared that neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present, Corbett said.

"It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (getaway driver). He ducked at one point."

When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.

Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

"The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."

He did shoot the guy in the back. I wasn't there, but I find it a little difficult to believe that shooting a fleeing thief in the back is self-defense.

-Arrian

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Apparently you missed the part where the cop (who did nothing) witnessed not only the old man warn them, but also that after the warning they turned and ran towards him.

Apply your Army ROE.

From the article:

Ortiz and Torres died a short distance from Horn's house, both shot in the back.

Either they turned away from him, or someone hit rewind.

ACK!

[Arrian]

He ordered them to freeze. They didn't - instead they ran. He shot them in the back.

Sounds like manslaughter to me.

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

Either they turned away from him, or someone hit rewind.

From the article...

"Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb."

It looks like they ran by him. Note they were now on his property as well. Also, it is hard to maintain he intended to kill them regardless given that he clearly warned them before shooting and then gave them enough time afterward for the cop to notice they started running towards him.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Patroklos


From the article...

"Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb."

It looks like they ran by him. Note they were now on his property as well. Also, it is hard to maintain he intended to kill them regardless given that he clearly warned them before shooting and then gave them enough time afterward for the cop to notice they started running towards him.

Sorry, I use the CIWS principle, anything moving away from me is no longer a threat.

ACK!