Creation and Evolution (not v.s)

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by SlowwHand


What comes it down to, as far as yoor argument, is chicken or egg. I say chicken, and I say God.

Sloww just called God a chicken

[MattBowron]

PART THREE: ABRAHAM, MOSES AND JEWISH LAWS

In the Bible it is summarized that Abraham (also known as Abram) originally lived in Mesopotamia around Ur, before he moved to Canaan.

Now it is interesting to note as I have said in previous postings that in Mesopotamia the anicent moon goddess was called Sin. This I believe is tied to the idea of original sin, being introduced with Eve.

Eve, and women in particular, as mentioned by posters before, were possibly ostracised by men due to their ability to bear children, which some would argue caused a dispute against the current patriarchal rule.

Child bearing is of course made possible due to fertility, and as the moon or month is the time of a women's fertility in her menstrual cycle, it would seem fitting that women being made fertile every month could be interpreted as a 'sin' by the founding fathers of Israel.

Mentioned in Daniel Quinn's book, The Story of B, he proclaims that it is due to overpopulation that has led to technological advancement and the increasing complexity and problems occurring in human society.

Overpopulation can be created due to fertility, but Quinn also argues is due to food population. The more food there is, the higher the eater population. Farming was of course expanded in Mesopotamia as it is one of the earliest civilizations. It was due to agriculture that also led to deforestation, salinization and desertification. This in turn led to migration and the spreading of farming culture into new lands.

It is not only Quinn who discusses this. Jared Diamond in his book Guns, Germs and Steel, proclaims that it is due to agriculture spreading through similar climate that civilization spread into Europe and from Europe into North America, South Africa and Australia, thus leading to the expansion and power of Europeans, making them the haves instead of the have-nots.

DIamond also states that it is through farming animals that diseases also occur. Cowpox, smallpox, measles, mumps and chicken pox all originated from farm animals.

Now academics call this era of history the pre-modern era, in that it was based on a spiritual understanding at the time. Sickness was interpreted often as a battle of spirits. This is what led to trepanning, digging holes in skulls as seen in caves dating back over ten thousand years. This also led to the use of witch doctor or shaman dances, as well as the testing of forms of herbs by the medicine man. In essence deeds towards the spirits were beleived to please them or displease them, and it was displeasing them that led to bad weather such as drought, famine and plague.

Now it is important to note that during the occupation of Moses, Egypt is hit by plagues. Boils, locusts, rivers of blood, and multiple deaths of young children, which could be attritubed to agriculture. It is the increase of food that could lead to the increase of pest population, and the increase of farming animals leading to the spread of diseases such as smallpox (boils) and the deaths of animals (rivers of blood) and plagues (deaths of firstborn).

However it is interesting to know that the laws of Jewish people, seem to counteract disease. In the book of Lectivicus, there are numerous passes on how animals should be offered in order to keep it clean. Also there are laws concerning intercourse, sperm emissions, touching the dead or other 'unclean' forms of acts. Even the acts of homosexuality can be seen as unclean, but not in the sense of morally unclean as some view it today, but in the sense of being a disease or STD vector. In essence disease was linked to how moral one was in behaviour. Disease being seen as a poisoning of the spirit. Laws such as circumcision and celibacy until marriage could be such laws used to stop STDs, veneral disease and other disease vectors. Not eating certain animals could also be because those animals, mostly being farm animals (as they have cloven hoofs) can spread disease. Pigs are seen as unclean animals for instance, which is why they are not eaten.

In essence what I am saying is that the Jewish people had a greater understanding about the links of disease and overpopulation than the Egyptians, which led to them using this opportunity, I believe, to gain their freedom. It is through this that they have managed to maintain their culture while countless other cultures have risen and fallen. They lived through Mesopotamia, Babylonia, Egypt, Greece, Persia and Rome for instance. Of course not all of this is due to culture, some of it is down to pure luck. But I'm sure that in keeping traditions of cleanliness occurring, they can live through such tumultous times of change while not losing too many of their numbers due to changes in disease vectors due to migrating numbers and fallen civilizations.

[Berzerker]

Genesis: 1:1 "In the beginning, when God created the universe, the earth was formless and desolte"

In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth - these terms are very important. Both Heaven and Earth are defined by God in this story, Heaven is the "firmament" placed amidst the waters, the already existing waters, and Earth is the name God gave to the dry land that appeared from beneath the receding waters, the already existing waters. Both appear in the story after God arrives at the waters, the already existing waters Therefore Heaven aint the universe and Earth aint this planet.

Genesis: 1:2: "The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness, and the Spirit of God was moving over the water."

This is the planet Earth God came upon, covered with water.

Genesis: 1:5: "And he named the light "Day" and the darkness "Night". Evening passed and morning came - that was the first day."

"Day" and "Night" are the result of a spinning planet in close(r) proximity to a star.

Genesis: 1:6-7: "Then God commanded, "Let there be a dome to divide the water and to keep it in two separate places" - and it was done. So God made a dome, and it separated the water under it from the water above it." Genesis: 1:8: "He named the dome "Sky". Evening passed and morning came - that was the second day."

Thats "Heaven", and it came after the water. If the ancient view of the planets as rivers, ie waters, played a role in this version, Heaven may divide the planets.

Genesis: 1:9: "THen GOd commanded, "Let the water below the sky come together in one place, so that the land will appear" - and it was done." Genesis: 1:10: "He named the land "Earth", and the water which had come together he named "Sea". Adnd God was pleased with what he saw."

So the water gathered under gravity exposing dry land and God called the dry land "Earth". Notice it aint this planet, just the dry land. The waters, the already existing waters, became the Seas as borders were drawn between land and sea. Its describing how a planet covered with water became what it is now...

[David Floyd]

Check out this site for some fairly intelligent discussion re: Science/evolution vs. Creationism. The site is pro-science.

http://www.creationtheory.org/

If you want my opinion, I don't think that the existence of God and the truth of the Christian faith are incompatible with Evolution. I absolutely believe that evolution occurred and continues to occur. Based on the evidence, if you choose to accept science, any other conclusion is ludicrous.