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  • Creation and Evolution (not v.s)

    PART ONE: THE CREATION

    Apologies to all readers who may be religious or scientific, but I have a question to ask: Is it me or are there similarities here?

    The following Bible quotes are taken from the Good News Bible published by THe Bible Society in AUstralia Incorporated. copyright 1988.

    The following scientific quotes are taken from multiple sources

    Genesis: 1:1 "In the beginning, when God created the universe, the earth was formless and desolte"

    Science: Some astrophysicists/cosmologists believe that everything was once united, with infinite matter, energy and space in a single point known as the "singularity", which is a gravitational singularity like a black hole. This is believed by scientists to occur 20-10 billion years ago (approximately 13.7 billion is the best guess so far). As earth is believed to have formed 4.65 billion years ago, this would thus be before the Earth formed. Thus the Earth would be formless. But as the singularity is also believed to be of zero size, where the earth would be at that time would be nothing at all, thus desolate.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: It is here in this singularity that all energy was put into one point. If observed without a physical body there would be nothing but light stretching out seemingly for eternity. Now it is interesting to note that in many religions God and Heaven is seen as often an eternal light source, which is symbolic of God's purity and ability to guide people.
    However if all this energy were to be felt physically, it would be so intense that the body would be incinerated and have so much light it would be blinded and be so traumatised the mind would go insane. Thus this physical version of experiencing this singularity could be seen as Hell-like in form. And thus it could be assumed that Heaven and Hell both existed at the same point.
    It is also important to note that Lucifer, the devil is also known as the 'light bearer' which creates the separation between man and god. Now in physics, the photon is the carrier of the electromagnetic force which not only carries light but which contains both the properties of being able to repell and attract, in the attraction of positve and negative and the repulsion of positive and positive, and negative and negative. Note that also in Greek mythology it is Prometheus that is the one who carries light and causes separation between Zeus and man on earth. Prometheus could thus be seen as a heroic form of the luciferian character in the Greek perspective. But this does not mean 'photons' means 'lucifer', for GOd is also seen as The Light. ANd yet this property of light, contains both the attracting force (which could be seen as love in an emotional sense) and repulsion (which could be seen as fear or hatred in an emotional sense). God has created opposites, light and darkness, man and woman, life and death, could it not be in a sense that god contains both good and evil? Now not that i mean God is evil, because evil is a matter of perspective also. To understand what I mean go to the second post: ADAM and EVE and CAIN and ABEL

    Genesis: 1:2: "The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness, and the Spirit of God was moving over the water."

    Science: In the DVD Space, starring Sam Neil, he quotes, and I paraphrase "after the big bang there was a large cloud of hydrogen gas, but echoes of the big bang were moving throughout the cloud". Now as the universe is also believed to have cooled down by this point, thus the cloud may be of equal temperature, and thus moved fluid like. As the universe has also cooled, energy decreased and photon activitiy greatly expanded and so darkness engulfed the universe. Echoes can be seen as vibrations, which is how wind is felt, or breath, which is in Latin, spiritus, anglicised as spirit.

    Genesis: 1:3: "Then God commanded, "Let there be light" - and light appeared"

    Science: Again in the Space DVD, Sam Neil comments that "the echoes brought clouds of hydrogen together, making them hotter and hotter and faster and faster, until suddenly they fused together, creating helium." Fusion I have learned so far is when the nuclei of atoms change from their current form held by gluons, and in the act of fusion the strong nuclear force and other forces such as electromagnetism and weak nuclear force and unleashed. Electromagnetic radiation can be felt as heat, and part of it is visible as light.

    Genesis: 1:4: "God was pleased with what he saw. Then he separated the light from the darkness."

    Science: The concentration of this fusion, began a chain reaction, that via gravity, pulls in all other matter equally, and thus form spheres of material. These whirling spheres of material give light and heat as the fusion takes place on the surface and on the inside. As this may have formed in many places, the spheres of light (stars) separate the gas, and become individual spheres in space.

    Genesis: 1:5: "And he named the light "Day" and the darkness "Night". Evening passed and morning came - that was the first day."

    Science: Now it is noted that in science, a day is experienced when a planet spins on its axis towards the sun and thus experiences a period of sunlight known as day. But here in the Bible, the earth has not yet been mentioned of being formed yet. So if there are no planets, how can there be days? A day can however also be called a period of brightness, and a night a period of darkness. Thus from an outside observer, if the brightness, being a star went away, it could be observed due to a star dying, when it fades into a nebula and a white dwarf and eventually a brown dwarf. A star however can also explode as a supernova, and it is through these supernovae that material made within the star explodes like a cloud, mixing with other gases. These contract again under gravity and thus form into new stars. Thus from an outside perspective, if time was sped up, it may appear as a period of brightness, a day, was followed by a period of darkness, a night, and then a new period of brightness, or a new day arrived.

    Genesis: 1:6-7: "Then God commanded, "Let there be a dome to divide the water and to keep it in two separate places" - and it was done. So God made a dome, and it separated the water under it from the water above it."

    Science: Now it is mentioned here that water is apparent. Water is seen as a fluid, but something also colder and more dense than a gas. I believe that new stars creating heat caused the heavier jettisoned material from previous supernovae to form into water, rather than creating via fusion new stars. I mention this because it is when a star runs out of hydrogen and creates heavier materials, that it collapses and cools. Thus the material may be affected by being expanded out as gas from the sun, but in moving away cooled and collided with other heavier material, forming into liquids. Heavier liquids through gravity draw lighter liquids onto it. It is through this liquid cores of worlds could form, as large planets such as jupiter and saturn are believed to have cores of liquid metals. Note that also a dome is how we would see the atmosphere from the surface of a world, and thus it may be here that the first planets come into formation.

    Genesis: 1:8: "He named the dome "Sky". Evening passed and morning came - that was the second day."

    Science: The lighter liquids may have attracted via gravity heavier gases, and they lighter gases, and thus gas giant worlds or worlds with large atmospheres form. It is also to note that skies are maintained by planets that maintain a magetosphere to repell the solar wind, and saturn and jupiter both have large magnetospheres due to their liquid metal cores. Thus the skies remain, but they cannot however survive a supernovae. The second day passing being that a second generation of stars died, and a third generation was born.

    Genesis: 1:9: "THen GOd commanded, "Let the water below the sky come together in one place, so that the land will appear" - and it was done."

    Science: Some liquids may have survived the supernovae explosion. When the new stars were formed these too could have expanded via heat but then cooled and collided with other liquids when away from the star. This could have led to the formation of solids, such as asteroids, and comets which make the building blocks of planetoids, moons and planets like solid core worlds such as Earth.

    Genesis: 1:10: "He named the land "Earth", and the water which had come together he named "Sea". Adnd God was pleased with what he saw."

    Science: It was through the movement of magma that scientists believe produced volcanoes, which spewed gaseous solids and liquids into the air, forming the atmosphere. Or that comets allowed gases of liquid material to form over worlds. These cooling away from the warm planet condensed into liquids, falling as rain, which then scientists believe formed into seas and oceans.

    Genesis: 1:11: "Then he commanded, "Let the Earth produce all kinds of plants, those that bear grain and those that bear fruit" - and it was done."

    Science: Scientists belive that it was bubbles containing chemicals such as acids led to the pooling of acids known as amino acids, leading to nucleic acids which formed the basis of RNA which formed the basis of DNA. It is of note that the earliest form of life found in fossil forms on Earth, are a form of bacteria that behaves most often like a plant. Blue-green algae, believed responsible for the creation of oxygen in the planet's atmosphere, is actually cyanobacteria. These are commonly found in stromatolites, and are prokaryotes, which means that they do not contain nucleuses.

    Genesis: 1:12: "So the earth produced all kinds of plants and God was pleased with what he saw."

    Science: It could be that plants and cell colonies which reproduced via division could have been the earliest form of worlds that produced life, which could have made life forms of various varieties. Mitochondria for example consume oxygen, while photosynthesis type bacteria called plasmids produce oxygen.

    Genesis: 1:13: "Evening passed and morning came, that was the third day."

    Science: It is noted here that some of these worlds may have been destroyed by supernovae, but it is noted that if some parts of that world survived, life may have survived. This is represented in the idea of life travelling to other worlds via comets or asteroids, known as panspermia.

    Genesis: 1:14: "Then GOd commanded, "Let lights appear in the sky to separate day from night and to show the time when days, years, and religious festivals begin."

    Science: It is during the formation of these new stars in the fourth generation of stars that solids if survived may have formed into multiple wordlets. It is through the collissions of such worlds that may have formed moons. The moon is a common religious belief in animism, and also in religious festivals as signs of fertility in some cultures. Note that in Mesopotamia, the name of the Moon Goddess was Sin. Also say if life began again in some worlds, some scientists say that if oxygen did not form we would not have clear skies with which to see the stars at night.

    Genesis: 1:15: "They will shine in the sky to give light to the Earth" - and it was done."

    Science: This again is where the moon forms and reflects light to the world below, and where oxygen forms in the atmosphere enough to allow stars to be visible at night.

    Genesis: 1:16: "So God made the two larger lights, the sun to rule over the day and the moon to rule over the night: he also made the stars."

    Science: as mentioned previously. Moons like our moon appears, and stars become visible, and perhaps now the sun becomes more visible during the day.

    Genesis: 1:17: "He placed the lights in the sky to shine on the earth."

    Science: It is also important to note that without the moon, the earth was believed that its axis would tilt in orbit, and this would make it difficult for life to adapt, casuing many periods of ice ages and droughts that would have slowed life from becoming complex. Thus with a moon, the earth's axis becomes fixed at a certain point, and this change allows more complexity, as the oxygen also allows for multicellular organisms and eukaryotes. This leads to greater diversity.

    Genesis: 1:18: "To tule over the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. ANd God was pleased with what he saw."

    Science: Periods of light and darkness could have led to the change in behaviour in eukaryotes, providing the nocturnal and the diurnal types of creatures.

    Genesis: 1:19: "Evening passed and morning came - that was the fourth day."

    Science: But is again perhaps that the earth was not only the planets that could have had life with eukaryotes and moons, but these early attempts too may have been extinguished by supernovae.

    Genesis: 1:20: "Then GOd commanded, "Let the water be filled with many kinds of living beings, and let the air be filled with birds."

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Now it is important for me to mention that the Bible is a tale telling people of how our world came to be, meaning how all present material came to be. Now that does not mean in my belief that it therefore needs to mention what has died before, because they are not importnat as they do not influence the world today. The Bible may only focus on what influences the world today. Also on a note of evolution being the idea of some form changing into another, this does not mean one soul turning into another. THe idea of a soul being like that of an idea of a baby by its parent, being separate to the physical form of the baby produced by that parent. Souls and spirits may themselves be categorized into forms based on complexity. Other faiths believe in this, believing that more complex forms have similar traits to previous forms, but are different and thus special in that they have different qualities. The mineral is to "react", in the Bahaii faith, but it does not "grow" like the vegetable, and yet the vegetable only grows where there is food to react to, it cannot "sense and move" to other places like the animal, and yet an animal is guided by its senses and cannot "learn and choose independently" as a human being can. Each category and each individual may exist separately, and thus each individual has a soul separate and perfect in its unique design. However the material world, rather than being eternal like the spiritual world, is transient and thus particles may form into other forms, but they are only the vehicles for the soul, which has an individual existence prior to being carried in the material body.

    Thus:

    Science: It is birds that are said to have evolved from dinosaurs, which in turn came from reptiles, which in turn came from amphibians, which in turn came from fish, which came physically from other creatures. Yet no dinosaur exists today because they died out and were made extinct, the fish however survived as did the birds, and thus the fish and the birds exist here today because of these past events.

    Genesis: 1:21: "So GOd created the great sea monsters, all kinds of creatures that live in the water, and all kinds of birds. ANd God was pleased with what he saw."

    Science: It is importnat to know that dinosaurs also lived in the ocean and were considered monstrous, such as pleisiosaurs and ichthyosaurs. Some dinosaurs also had feathers at times to keep them warm as they were cold blooded, and thus may have been bird-like in form.

    Genesis: 1:22: "He blessed them all and told the sea creatures that live in the water to reproduce and fill the sea, and he told the birds to increase in number."

    Science: it is also importnat to note that it was within the sea that sexual procreation began instead of asexual division. Microbes were asexual, while worms were hermaphrodites and thus were both male and female, while in later forms of arthropods and fish and thus amphibians, reptiles, dinosaurs and birds and mammals were male and female, as are forms of plants which also evolved from the common bacteria.

    Genesis: 1:23: "Evening passed and morning came - that was the fifth day"

    Science: There may have been entire worlds with dinosaurs, bird-like creatures and sea creatures, but these too may have perished from supernovae or from asteroids, propelled by supernovae into other stellar systems.

    Genesis: 1:24: "Then God commanded, "Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life: domestic and wild, large and small" - and it was done."

    Science: Now it is importnat to note that wild animals are often in most cases mammals, and it was after the dinosaurs died that mammals became more prominent in Earth's history and thus they became larger and more diverse in form, some being friendly and thus domestic-like, others being wild and unfriendly.

    Genesis: 1:25: "So God made them all, and he was pleased with what he saw."

    Science: Again the mammals prospered and became more numerous and diverse.

    Genesis: 1:26: "Then GOd said, "And now we will make human beings; they will be like us and resemble us. They will have power over the fish, the birds, and all the animals, domestic and wild, large and small."

    Science: Human beings are different to other animals in that they are creative, like God can be seen as creative in making all the different worlds that have existed so far. However unlike animal creativity that can only be extended to their own surroundings. Man can use his creativity to subjegate nature into whatever form he desires and thus be creative in creating new innovative forms of art and technology.

    Genesis: 1:27: So God created human beings, making them to be like himself. He created them male and female.

    Science: The material form of humans comes into existence, and their sexual dimorphism is more prominent and diverse than that of other animals.

    Genesis: 1:28: Blessed them and said "Have many children, so that your descendents will live all over the Earth and bring it under their control. I am putting you in charge of the fish, the birds, and all the wild animals."

    Science: It is through technology that man's numbers increased, leading him to conquer many forms of game as a hunter.

    Genesis: 1:29: "I have provided all kinds of grain and all kinds of fruit for you to eat."

    Science: man may at this time learn of planting fruit and grain in order to eat food, and thus learn gardening techniques.

    Genesis: 1:30: "But for all the wild animals and for all the birds I have provided grass and leafy plants for food."

    Science: This could be the observations of man being very selective in his diet and being aware of the links of animals to their food sources.

    Genesis: 1:31: "God looked at everything he had made, and he was very pleased. Evening passed and morning came - that was the sixth day."

    Science: And it could be hinted too that all these beasts and humans may have existed on other worlds but may have been wiped out by previous supernovae.

    And so ends chapter 1 of Genesis, if anyone has comments please add them, or discuss what I've written. I'll be happy to talk to others and hear your feedback.

    Coming soon will be PART TWO: ADAM & EVE and CAIN & ABEL
    Last edited by MattBowron; May 16, 2008, 21:48.
    "Life is the only RPG you'll ever play, The religious want to be one with the moderator, the scientists want to hack the game, and the gamers want to do both."

  • #2
    If you try hard enough, you can always find similarities. Especially with bible quotes that can be interpreted in various ways...
    "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
    "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

    Comment


    • #3
      Coming soon will be PART TWO: ADAM & EVE and CAIN & ABEL


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Traianvs
        If you try hard enough, you can always find similarities. Especially with bible quotes that can be interpreted in various ways...
        And you can always find someone that discounts anything that might motivate scientific theory.

        As in the quoted one.
        Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
        "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
        He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

        Comment


        • #5
          MattBowron is insinuating that those bible writers knew the same scientific knowledge we have now. At least the comparisons seem to indicate that.

          It's pretty much like numerology, find hard enough and you'll find some wicked **** anyhow
          "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
          "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

          Comment


          • #6
            Kind of like a Ouija board?
            Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
            "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
            He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

            Comment


            • #7
              Doesn't prove or disprove anything, but as long as it's fun to think about and you don't take yourself too seriously...why not?
              1011 1100
              Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

              Comment


              • #8
                PART TWO: ADAM AND EVE AND CAIN AND ABEL

                Apologies to Verto, but if you don't like reading about ideas concerning Bible and science, the answer is simple, don't bother reading it, just ignore it

                The notes I take are taken actually from other sources I have read, namely Daniel Quinn's "Ishmael" and notes on Ishmael.

                First ADAM and EVE

                It is noted from the Bible in summary that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden in harmony with God, but it was through eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they became Sinful and thus became thrown out from the Garden of Eden. Adam was forced to toil the soil, and Eve was given the gift of having painful childbirth.

                Now scientists note that childbirth is currently painful for women due to one thing only: bipedalism. And it is bipedalism that scientists say differ human beings from other apes.

                It is also of note that another term of toiling in the soil or working the soil, can be seen as a euphemism for agriculture.

                Now if Adam and Eve were living in a Garden of Eden, it could be seen as similar as living in the jungle or a forest, which was how the world may have appeared to be in certain areas when they were occupied by hunter-gatherers and not cleared or slashed and burned for the spreading of agriculture.

                The symbol of the Garden of Eden can reference man living in harmony with nature, which is also ironically, as perceived by Quinn, a major message of animism, earlier forms of religion which scientists think originated with Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens around 200,000 to 35,000 years ago. Neanderthals were the first humans to bury their dead and believe in the afterlife, and the many shamanist rituals are common in Homo Sapien, also human being, culture.

                But it is the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that may seem confusing, but here is Quinn's take on it. In the world today what is considered as good is what benefits an individual, what is evil is something that is unbeneficial. Being able to live is seen by many humans as most beneficial or the most good, and thus death as the most unbeneficial or the most evil.

                But in the case of nature, life and death occur all the time. The lion eats the gazelle for instance. Thus if the lion eats the gazelle it would be good for the lion and evil for the gazelle. But if the gazelle were to escape and live it would be good for the gazelle and evil for the lion.

                Quinn also notes that in nature the population of that which eats, and that which is eaten plays a role in the balancing act of nature. If a food population is to increase, the eater's population is to increase. If the eater's population increases however, the food population decreases. If the food population decreases, the eater population will decrease. But if the eater population decreases, the food population will eventually increase. Thus it is a balancing act of what is eaten and what isn't eaten that provides in a sense, a balance in the populations, thus allowing both to survive.

                Now if God has managed life to exist on this planet for over 4.5 billion years, God must have knowledge of how this balancing act must work out. In the theory of intelligent design, who must live and who must die must be within the blueprints of creating a balancing act for nature.

                Now with agriculture where man takes control of the environment and gets rid of other forms of nature, such as trees and other animals such as rodents, locusts and other creatures in order for his crops to grow, this is perceived by Quinn as an upsetting of that balance.

                Quinn even goes so far as to claim that it is through humans having this control over nature that is like a war of egos, and that this war is what is resulting in the current extinctions of species in the present day.

                Quinn uses his book Ishmael as the idea of man's rebellion from God, his eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as based in his mythological telling that man rebelled against having to die. Man (which in hebrew is called Adam) chose life (which in hebrew is called Eve) and so it is through Eve that Adam chooses to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

                Quinn goes ahead using his mythology to state that it is hunter-gatherers who Leave their fate in the Hands of GOd, and it is agriculturalists who Take their fate into their own hands, bringing birth to Quinn's ideas of Takers and Leavers.

                Quinn also states through his mythology, that Takers believe that the world should belong to man, and thus man should control the world and do what he pleases with it, and if nature rebels against man, then man should conquer it, even to the point of destruction, through his anthropocentric viewpoint.

                Quinn states that the Leavers however, believe that they belong to the world, that it is by living the life of God that they have managed to obtain the physical faculties that have made them become aware of God and thus be able to have communication with him. And this they believe could be used by God to teach man about how to be not the last form of creation, but the beginning of a whole new line of intelligent beings, with man being the steward of earth, protecting it until other intelligent beings come along for him to work alongside with, thus expanding in a sense, the children of God.

                Why of course Eve and therefore women can be considered as evil is through the perspective of males, that it is female's capability to give birth to children that can create in a sense overpopulation. Overpopulation creates famine, epidemics and eventually wars as there are not enough resources to feed the growing numbers. This could be made similar with the idea of Pandora's Box in the Greek mythology, where it is through pandora's box (perhaps a euphemism for womb) that all the plagues of sickness, war and death come from.

                Note that in my previous post, the Mesopotamian's had a moon goddess called Sin, and the moon is considered through ancient legends responsible for the female menstrual cycle. Thus it could be perceived that through Sin that women are able to breed 'evil' in the form of wars, plagues, famines and crime. And note, Abraham came from Mesopotamia, Ur, as mentioned in the Bible.

                CAIN AND ABEL

                In the Bible it goes briefly like this:
                Cain is seen as the first born brother, and a farmer. Abel is second born and is a herder. It is through offering to God that God is pleased with Abels, but not Cain's and so Cain slews Abel, and thus Cain is given a mark that makes him be seen as evil.

                Quinn's interpretation goes as follows.
                It is easier for a person, according to QUinn, to become a gardener than a herder. It takes only the first seed dropped for it to grow into a new plant. However, training an animal into tameness from wildness takes countless generations of breeding. Thus it could be seen by Quinn as only natural that being a gardener/farmer comes first before being a herder.

                The case of Abel's offering being favoured is seen by Quinn as that Abel being a herder is more similar to a nomadic hunter-gatherer. He goes from place to place, allowing previous grazing grounds to recover, and thus for life to continue to survive. Being a farmer however requires expansion from place to place, and it is through over-farming that scientists believe leads to salinization, a drop in water availability and later desertificiation. Thus farming could be interpreted as being more destructive, rather than constructive.

                The case of Cain killing Abel is mentioned in the idea of QUinn in that hebrews were originally not farmers, but were herders, an offshoot of hunter-gatherers. It was however a different semetic group, which may have expanded into their territory, and being able to not convinve the herders to give up their land because of Quinn's proposed mythological reasoning, they instead killed ABel and took his herding land in order for it to go under cultivation.

                Now Quinn suggests that perhaps the mark of Cain is in fact the white skin of caucasians, as Causcaus was a region that was near the Arabian penninsula where farming originated in the Fertile Crescent.

                I however doubt this, believing more the mark in my personal opinion to be the mark of the spreading desertification and environmental destruction that Cain, also resembling Cane, a form of crop, leaves behind.

                But it is important to note here that if we were living the Taker ideal, as Quinn supposes, our eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge would be an ascent, not a fall, and that our toiling in the soil would be a reward, not a punishment. Thus Quinn assumes that it is the tale of the fall and the killing of Cain by Abel being seen as evil, because it is a construction by the Hebrew herders of 'how things came to be this way', and it is thus why we have this version of the tale most commonly in the Bible, because it was written by the Hebrews and is their version of the tale.

                Coming soon PART THREE: ABRAHAM, MOSES AND JEWISH LAWS
                Last edited by MattBowron; May 16, 2008, 21:39.
                "Life is the only RPG you'll ever play, The religious want to be one with the moderator, the scientists want to hack the game, and the gamers want to do both."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Until a scientist can tell me what created the elements of the "Big Bang". and/or can tell me what created the "first evolutionary species", there is no discussion possible.
                  It just appearred doesn't cut it. The Bible says Adam and Eve were the first people. Additionally, days, when judged by eternity, is very much debateable.
                  Was 7 days, 7 earth days, or 7 eternity days? It could make a huge difference.
                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                  "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                  He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    i think it was 7 stellar generations, each day being the life of a star.

                    basically my take on it:

                    Bible says it happened one way... (see first post)

                    Scientific views seem oddly familiar... (see first post)

                    So perhaps both could be right?

                    By the way, I'm not a scientist

                    Nor am I a Christian technially

                    I'm a postmodernist

                    I think both may be true
                    "Life is the only RPG you'll ever play, The religious want to be one with the moderator, the scientists want to hack the game, and the gamers want to do both."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Creation and Evolution (not v.s)

                      I am still with Traianvs - this is a silly game to play. You take a particular translation of a particular copy of the Bible, and then heap on all sorts of extensions to what was ACTUALLY said.

                      On top of that, you are adding all sorts of things that are not science - panspermia, extra-terrestrial life, comparisons with other mythologies, etc. It is a mad mix that won't get you anywhere - except maybe to an interesting story.

                      But, as I have played this game myself in the past...

                      Originally posted by MattBowron
                      Genesis: 1:3: "Then God commanded, "Let there be light" - and light appeared"

                      Science: Again in the Space DVD, Sam Neil comments that "the echoes brought clouds of hydrogen together, making them hotter and hotter and faster and faster, until suddenly they fused together, creating helium." Fusion I have learned so far is when the nuclei of atoms change from their current form held by gluons, and in the act of fusion the strong nuclear force and other forces such as electromagnetism and weak nuclear force and unleashed. Electromagnetic radiation can be felt as heat, and part of it is visible as light.
                      I think what you are after here is the decoupling of matter and radiation about a third of a million years after the big bang. After that point, when the expanding universe had cooled enough to let atoms form, the radiation (light) could travel across space unimpeded.

                      Fiat lux, indeed!

                      Originally posted by MattBowron
                      Why of course Eve and therefore women can be considered as evil is through the perspective of males, that it is female's capability to give birth to children that can create in a sense overpopulation.
                      Don't think so. The legends and myths of prehistory speak of plagues, pestilences, and wars. I don't recall any stories going "O, we have too many babies!". Females were likely envied/feared for their powerful ability to create life, but saying they were considered evil because they could create overpopulation is stretching it way too far.

                      Originally posted by MattBowron
                      where oxygen forms in the atmosphere enough to allow stars to be visible at night.
                      Run that by me again?
                      Long live the Dead Threads!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SlowwHand
                        It just appearred doesn't cut it.
                        Why not? Isn't that the way you say God happened?
                        Long live the Dead Threads!!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MattBowron

                          The notes I take are taken actually from other sources I have read, namely Daniel Quinn's "Ishmael" and notes on Ishmael.
                          I forgot I read that book. That one trumps Heart of Darkness as a book I'd like to purge from my memory (fortunately it's been so long I pretty much have Unfortunately I know I wasted several hours of my life reading that drivel that I can never get back ).
                          I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                          I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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                          • #14
                            apologies omni rex draconis

                            the ideas of overpopulation perhaps being of influence I took from Quinn's The Story of B, which is the second book after Ishmael.

                            You're right also about the dispersion of light due to the separation of matter and radiation.

                            What i'm saying is not the truth, but it is more an analogy made through the similar structure of the sentences of Genesis in this copy of the Bible that I own, plus the chosen segments of cosmological history. I use these only to show where these areas are of similarity to me, not as a proven truth. I don't currently have a time machine, so I can't confirm anything I'm saying, I'm merely using two major grand narratives and choosing from it what I use to support my argument: that there are similarities in the structure of events in the Bible and in that of cosmological evolution if looked at in a certain perspective, but I agree this is only a chosen perspective, it is not a total perspective.

                            Why I chose oxygen is because I have read in other scenarios written by other science authors that the earth originally may have had a very different atmosphere, made of methane and other materials that was opaque due to the types of chemicals and their combinations within the atmosphere. For example we cannot see down to the outer layers of Venus due to its carbon dioxide atmosphere. Neither can we see through to the layers of Jupiter or Saturn due to their large amounts of hydrogen, or into Uranus and Neptune due to their chemical atmospheres, which I believe contain a lot of ammonia. The only reason why we can see Mar's surface is because it has a thin atmosphere, and we can see into Mercury and Pluto and the Moon's surface because they have no atmosphere. The Earth however has a thick atmosphere, containing 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and 1% of other materials, mostly carbon dioxide. It seems to me that perhaps the fact that there is oxygen in our atmosphere could be one of the reasons why our atmosphere is more transparent from an outside view of earth, but it appears blue due to the chemical reaction with light in the periods of day.

                            Apologies if I have been ranting and raving all these posts. I only mean to clarify what I have said.

                            Thankyou for all opinions given so far.
                            "Life is the only RPG you'll ever play, The religious want to be one with the moderator, the scientists want to hack the game, and the gamers want to do both."

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                            • #15
                              The atmosphere of the early Earth would mostly likely fit your purposes, then. Volcanoes spewed up most of the volatiles (things that like to be a gas) for millions of years before the atmosphere cooled enough to let water and other chemicals condense out.

                              I am pretty sure that you wouldn't be able to see through that murk; the ash alone would have blocked the skies.
                              Long live the Dead Threads!!

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