NATO members show how much they value the Alliance

[Patroklos]

Withdrew from Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty

Which has nothing do to with Europe.

Withdrew and undermined Kyoto treaty

Relevent how?

Withdrew and undermined ICC

Relevant how?

Unilateral decided for a pre-emptive war

Hardly, but this is relevant to Afghanistan how?

Broke UN charter with Iraq war, and severely damaged UN

False, but also not relevant. Actually, it is relevant in so much as it shows European hypocrisy, seeing as there is an unquestioned UN mandate for Afghanistan.

Spied on allies to bully them to vote for them at the time of Iraq war (which failed in the end so US just happily ignored UN and pushed on)

1.) Who doesn't spy on their allies?
2.) irrlevent
3.) The UN was not ignored, in fact it was followed.

Use of detention camps

1.) Who doesn't do this.
2.) So?

Use of government sanctioned torture... ignoring Geneva conventions (or better to say inventing words to go around them like "non-combatant")...

Not so much, but irrelevant regardless.

Extraordinary Rendition....

Irrelevant

should we go on?

Yes, I am actually curious if you could possible fit more strawmen into one post. Did anything you say some how refute.

1.) Article 5 was invoked with the agreement of all member states.

2.) European alliance members are not pulling their weight.

2.) Afghanistan is not Iraq.

During Iraq war total ignorance on the de-bathification advice, and resulting power vacuum... which we see now how it finished...

Which has what to do with Afghansitan, or with us fullfilling our NATO obligations?

Like during Israel Lebanon conflict in 2006 where Bush admin happy ignored everything "agreed" with UK on the middle east roadmap, and did as they please again...

That is a very interesting, and absolutely false, version of that event. But again, it is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Total ignorance for British protests agains extraordinary rendition, and the damage that this did (still does) to the joint intelligence operations...

1.) Not ignorance, but just because you protest doesn't mean we have to go along.

2.) This has yielded nothing but intelligence. Please tell me how it could do otherwise.

3.) What part of extrodinary rendition has anything to do with NATO?

and now form some whiny USA-ians... ooohhh you don't want to help us out in Afghanistan... it is not Iraq after all...

The only relevent thing you have said so far. Also self damning. Congrats

Well tough luck, after 8 years of ignorance Europe and the rest of the world is waiting on who will the American people elect next, to see wheter there is any sense in cooperation or will it again be a totally one sided affair...

Hmmmm, you seem all up in arms becasue we wouldn't follow your opinion lock step, but somehow it is some vast insult because we tell you no thanks?

And again, what does Iraq have to do with Euripean NATO treaty obligations, or ANY treaty obligations again?

You don't want to go to Iraq, fine. Americans have gotten over that long ago. But you are obligated by treaty, and not just that but AGREED at the time to be all about Afghanistan. There is no parallel between you exercising your right to not participate in Iraq and you breaking treaty obligations and an agreement on top of them to participate in Afghanistan.

You can muddy the waters with irrelevancies all you want, it changes nothing about the fact that you (the relevent portions of NATO) copped out on your word like spoiled teenage trust fund babies.

if it ends up one sided again, than what do you expect us to participate when you like and ignore us when you like as well?

Ignore. Disagree. They are two seperate words. But again, it is all cool when you disagree with us but god forbid we do the same.

Fortunately even in US Bush is sort of an anomaly, but by the looks of it here there are many takers of this one-sided relationship... it's good when you are on top, but somehow does not jive when the one below does not want to dance to the tune...

Blah Blah Blah...

You guys have egg on your face and you can't admit it. I have NO problem with you guys not being in on Iraq even if I disagree (notice that, I respect your right to do your own thing), but you agreed to Afghanistan. Participate or be rightfully called out on it.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Ah-ah-ah!

We never ratified Kyoto or the ICC. And the ABM Treaty was stupid to begin with(especially when other countries had ABM systems under development anyway).

sure and NATO said that they will help in Afghanistan which they did, but now few years later and after US admin's ignorance of the others soured the relationship... the commitment is still there, but is minuscule... so technically noone is breaking anything with that one right?

Noone is breaking anything for not ratifying Kyoto or ICC etc... apart from breaking "good" international relations which result with such lackluster NATO support later on for example...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by PLATO


Why make the same ole arguments that have been made here for years. Clearly you are willing to believe what you wish no matter how many facts have been thrown at you.

So we disagree.

I will say that there are some things I do agree with. De-Baathification for example was a horrible idea.

just to reiterate once again... for Patroklos as well

the above are examples of US treatment of the international community including the allies that you expect more help from now, as technically noone is breaking anything in NATO either without pledging the "desired" commitment by US...

The current lackluster relationship is the result of poor (failed?) US foreign policy of last 8 years under GW Bush... that is all there is to the argument, the rest are facts on the ground, I just listed some of the obvious and well known reasons which show the US treatment of the "rest of the world" including NATO members, but now that something is being asked for, not much happens... just giving you some of the reasons why...

Foreign policy is not a one way street like Bush admin has been conducting last 8 years (especially evident in the behavior towards "special ally" UK) those are just the results... it will take some time to repair what Bush has undone by the new admin, if it decides that the "rest of the world" needs to be taken into consideration by US government again...

[Patroklos]

Kyoto and the ICC are simply examples Euros like to bring up about the US not caring about others, but that is stupid opinion.

What, are we supposed so sign things we don't agree with so it will give you a warm fuzzy?

And it would help if these grand examples of international cooperation were not complete pieces of **** to begin with.

And btw, your examples are maybe 1% of the thousands of international things the US works with others on all the time. The rift is entirely in your head.

[Wezil]

We need a "head in the sand" smiley.

You can deny GWB has been disastrous for US foreign relations all you want but it won't change the fact that he is/was.

Is this the reason NATO members aren't stepping up in Afghanistan? In part, I'm sure it is.

[Patroklos]

You can deny GWB has been disastrous for US foreign relations all you want but it won't change the fact that he is/was.

I deny nothing of the sort, but I will also say the effect is grossly exaggerated. There are other reasons besides GWB people have the opinions they do.

Is this the reason NATO members aren't stepping up in Afghanistan? In part, I'm sure it is.

They can have whatever reasons they want, but so far everyone given has been childish or inconsequential, and none of them change the fact they are indeed NOT stepping up.

You know, I wonder if after France removed itself from NATO and kicked out all allied assets from their territory in the middle of the Cold War if the US would have defended them any less. I doubt it.

[Wezil]

Call it childish and inconsequential if you want (seems allies not responding when you ask is consequential ) but a reason was given. I've heard the same argument from some in the "anti-Afghan mission" camp in this country (but not all - hence my use of "in part") so I can only imagine it is also heard elsewhere. Deny if you wish.

[Patroklos]

Call it childish and inconsequential if you want (seems allies not responding when you ask is consequential ) but a reason was given.

Wow, you made that really easy for me.

've heard the same argument from some in the "anti-Afghan mission" camp in this country (but not all - hence my use of "in part") so I can only imagine it is also heard elsewhere. Deny if you wish.

You think conciously ignoring the seperate realities of Afghanistan because you have your panties in a wad over Iraq is not childish?

Interesting...

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Wow, you made that really easy for me.

Yeah, whatever.

You think conciously ignoring the seperate realities of Afghanistan because you have your panties in a wad over Iraq is not childish?

Interesting...

Ahh, so you didn't even read the posts from the Euros.


He gave an entire list of international projects that the US refuses to take part in. You think the reasons for non-participation are just (fair enough) but you can't then turn around and ***** and moan b/c the rest of the world isn't gungho for what is seen as your stupid project.

Rather than address this you use words like "childish" to describe those that disagree and refer everything back to opposition to the mother of all US f***-ups lately (as if this helps your position). You are pathetic.

[Wezil]

I'm sorry Patroklos but you are a perfect example of what is wrong with the US these days. You could be the poster boy.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BeBro
Didn't they try exactly this with the Northern Alliance?

Yes, and the Northern Alliance happened to be the bulk of the ground fighting forces during the invasion. It was pretty successful.
Afterwards, they tried to install a US-friendly democracy in the country, and that's when it started to go downhill. Afghanistan is feudal, and any modernization effort has to come from the Afghans themselves. The continued occupation only makes it worse in a country that prides itself of having always repelled its invaders.

As for "regime change" I think there wasn't really anything else on the table in Afg. You don't attack a superpower and have your safe haven being unaffected, and the gov behind you still standing. In such a case the attacked power will reassure itself and anyone in doubt about its position, making it crystal clear that such an attack doesn't lead you anywhere.

Indeed, the reaction of the US was predictable, and was justified as far as realpolitik goes. That NATO countries contribute to the invasion was also understandable, given how much the US was supported by public opinions, after Sept 11.

However, attacking the Taleban was still an act of aggression: the attackers were an international terrorist group called Al Qaeda, supported locally by the Taleban regime - the Taleban weren't the ones who fell the towers.
By doing that act of aggression, the US could show to the world nobody messes with the Pax Americana. NATO has fundamentally nothing to do with that adventure, just like it had nothing to do with Iraq.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Wezil
but you can't then turn around and ***** and moan b/c the rest of the world isn't gungho for what is seen as your stupid project.

Then they should not have invoked Article 5 of the NATO treaty if they didn't want to be seen as useless parasites by not following through.

[Krill]

Patroklos: Euros are childish and inconsequential because they won't do as we ask.
OFITG: USians are ignorant.

Well, it was a nice troll but now it's going to denigrate into a flame war...

[Monk]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Please be kind enough not to confuse me with my country, and especially with its current government, thank you

Anybody should have that in their signature. I'm saying that in some foolish, much too optimistic belief it could get rid of the usual nonsense like 'We saved you in WWII' or 'You're letting us down by doing so-and-so', or even 'We saved you in the War of 1812'.

I'm sure realism will set in soon, but so far I'm enjoying this trippy fantasy...

[TCO]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
after US admin's ignorance of everyone else over past 8 years... how could they expect any better?

I guess US is learning that bullying does not work as well as planned...

I guess the US is learning there is no gratitude from the maggots who got protected from the USSR by us.