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  • Your opinion on reservations (Affirmative Action) in this case

    A few days (or weeks, I don't remember exactly), the Supreme Court of India resolved a dispute between Youth for Equality and the Government of India. It concerned reservations for the OBCs (Other Backward Castes) in institutes of higher learning.

    Reservations are slightly different from the normal AA in that they are completely merit-agnostic, and are coercively enforced even on private educational institutions.

    What this effectively means is that if I'm running a college or university, then:

    a) I have to set aside a number of seats for "Reserved Category" (RC) students.
    b) I cannot say that "You have to have at least these grades to come to my college" to an RC student who applies if a seat remains unfilled. So even if my institute is the top in the country, but the only RC students who apply are totally under- or un-qualified, I still have to take them in. The effect this has is pretty easily imagined.
    c) If I do not receive a sufficient number of RC applicants, then those seats are to be left vacant - nobody else may occupy them, even if there is huge bunch of people willing to join.


    It makes no difference whether or not I take aid from the government - this law has no regard for that.

    This results in absurdities such as the most competitive engineering institutes in India, the IITs, being forced to admit students from the RCs who have marks as low as one or four on a SAT-like test, whereas the cut-off score for normal people is in the hundreds. You have more than three hundred thousand people competing for three thousand seats, where the people who get in are supposed to be the top talent of the country, and you have to admit someone who cannot get more than four on a multiple-choice test of more than a hundred questions. And many of the RC students who do get in end up dropping out, being eased out, or, in extreme cases, committing suicide due to the realisation of their own position. (Imagine how you would feel if you never understood a single damn thing ever which everyone else considered trivial, and you knew it, and everyone else knew it, and probably treated you accordingly? They'd probably be very kind about it, too.)

    The case I referred to in the beginning concerned the extension of this same reservation - which already was provided to the people classified as "Scheduled Castes/Scheduled Tribes" (Scheduled because they appear on some governmental schedule of backwardness) to the tune of 22.5 % of the total seats - to the people known as the OBCs (the "Other Backward Castes").

    The last census in the country in which caste was recorded was done in 1931, and those are the data we're still using.

    According to that Census, the OBCs constitute just a bit over 50% of the total population of the country.

    Around a year ago, the government had wanted to sign into law a proclamation that all institutes would henceforth increase their intake by 27%, and to use the sum total of that increase for reservations for OBCs. The organisation named "Youth for Equality" contested this in court, claiming it to be unconstitutional (having read the relevant sections of the constitution, IMHO, it is). The Supreme Court of India ruled against them and in favour of the government.


    With respect to this, I wanted to bring to light this article, reproduced below, by a person whom I know. It is a critique of the current policy and law, and an analysis of what exactly may be going on. I'd like opinions on it, and on the topic in general, and this case in particular.

    Link


    Reserving The Deserving
    By Saurav Basu

    If we go for reservations on communal and caste basis, we swamp the bright and able people and remain second-rate or third-rate…..This way lies not only folly but disaster….How are we going to build the public sector or indeed any sector with second rate people?
    – Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Letter to Chief Ministers, 27 June 1961

    The landmark SC decision on the 10th of April, 2008 is being unanimously viewed as a big boost for reservations, since it has upheld the constitutional validity of the UPA’s government’s decision in 2006 to reserve 27.5% of seats for OBCs (other backward castes) in all centrally funded institutions. However, the judgment has also thrown a spanner in the works of the government by making the exclusion of the ‘creamy layer’ from the OBC reservation pie mandatory. This has already set coalition partners fuming. Chagan Bhujwal of the RPI, D Raja of the CPI, Paswan of the LJP and others have expressed dissent at the SC’s decision and have been more than outspoken in their intention to subvert the SC’s intentions through legislation. Apart from this major rider, the SC has also left the case of reservation in private institutions open for future judgment while suggesting the government to review the OBC reservations every 5-10 years. Some experts also contend that the judgment rules out reservations at the post-graduate level.

    Pro reservation groups [and that includes all political parties of India] have unanimously attempted to appropriate the judgment as being cent percent in their favor. For instance, Indira Jaising, a lawyer representing the pro reservationists declares “the judgment gives a clear signal that the future lies in inclusive growth, inclusion of SC/ST and backward classes in the halls of higher learning.” She cautiously adds; “It is true that the judgment calls upon the government to exclude the 'creamy layer.' This seems to be in line with the Mandal judgment, which also mandated the exclusion of the creamy layer in employment. It was argued for the Union of India, that in order to avail of the benefits of higher education, one needs to be in a stable economic position to arrive at the level or competing for those exams. To exclude them, would be to deny the class as a whole, the benefit of those who could become leaders and peer group motivators .However, that was not to be!”

    If she had been aware of past SC judgments, then she would have appreciated the fact that exclusion of the creamy layer was unequivocally directed by the SC in the Indira Sawhney Vs Union of India, 2000 case where it observed “The non exclusion of the creamy layer or the inclusion of forward castes in the list of backward castes will be totally illegal. Such an illegality offending the root of the Constitution cannot be allowed to be perpetuated even by constitutional amendment.”

    At this point; we may revisit three of the core anti-reservation arguments. The crux amongst them was constituted by the appalling state of primary and secondary education where functional literacy rates could be as low as 37%. In India Development Report 2002, Kirit S. Parikh had pointed out, “With a literacy rate of 65, we have 296 million illiterates, age seven years and above, as per the 2001 census. The number of illiterates today exceeds the population of the country of around 270 million at Independence, age seven and above.”

    The largest segment of the world’s illiterates is in India. The problem was even more acute with SC/ST and some other backward castes. More than half of the Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe households in the country in 1981 were totally illiterate; i.e., no member of the household could read and write.

    In rural India, where 80% of SC/ST and backward castes reside the literacy rate [2001] is a mere 59.4 in contrast to 80% in urban India where the majority of the population comprises of the so called upper castes.

    When the court questioned the government’s commitment to the cause of basic education, the government counsel was all at sea – fingers pointing at the much publicized Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan which had according to CAG’s report, placed in Parliament conceded that the much-vaunted program on free and universal education has been a colossal failure, a disaster that stems from an almost calculated negligence despite a budget of over Rs. 10,000 crores. The record has been uniformly disgraceful and the Centre owes an explanation for its dismal performance in implementing one of the basics of governance.

    Another alarming observation is the steep dropout rate; such that only 10% of the students in Rural India enrolled for primary education eventually go on to complete their basic education. [NSSO Report No. 473 – Literacy and Levels of Education in India, 1999-2000]

    The fundamental failure has to be maximally attributed to the Congress Party since it has dominated the corridors of power for over 5 decades now. Is it not a simple piece of logic that children deprived of basic education can never avail the fruits of higher education? Hence, there is absolutely no question of restricting students of the backward caste to the level of basic education. On the contrary, basic education was the most important means to bridge the socio-eco disparities which unfortunately will remain the norm for millions of Indians especially in the rural areas. Their voices will not be heard! And yet pro quota lobbyists allege this move to be means of perpetuating upper caste hegemony over disadvantaged sections of society when the ‘Youth For Equality’ was calling for a crusade against illiteracy and ignorance.

    On the contrary, these sanctimonious pro-quota groups share such a deep degree of bonding with their backward brothers that the former are not ready to relinquish their reservation benefits in favor of the latter despite being the sole beneficiaries of the reservation policy for over 60 years.

    Justice A.P. Sen had explicitly observed in the famous K.C. Vasanth Kumar Vs State of Karnataka (AIR, 1985) case that “only the privileged groups within the backward classes reap all the benefits of reservation with the result that the lowest of the low who are stricken with poverty and are therefore socially and educationally backward remain deprived through these constitutional provisions…”

    This elite class or creamy layer amongst the backwards, who usurp all the reservation benefits wants to maintain the current disparity of standards to emerge as the sole leaders *** supposedly emancipated representatives of their communities, by indoctrinating their ignorant brethren against their common enemy in demonical upper caste constructs. The politicians are the chief architects in this diabolical plan who have deployed a standard technique “look for a grievance…show by some measure that the target group has been left behind...Stroke the sense of being discriminated against...Frighten the group into believing that others are out to take away even more of what is its right and present yourself as the only savior” [Falling over backwards, Page xiii, Arun Shourie]

    That such unholy nexuses exist and that a real and identifiable creamy layer amongst the OBCs who outstrip even the affluent amongst the general classes is no figment of our imagination is proven by the fact that the annual per capita consumption expenditure (APCCE) for OBCs is Rs 15,436, which compares reasonably well with Rs 16,923 for the general category.

    The second argument was of course merit. The striking students were often flayed as merit mongers by the pro quota hate mongers. Merit was waved aside as a purely Aryan invention. Praful Bidwai, the communist leader, claimed merit to be some bogus intangible identity. The preposterous nature of these arguments is self evident, and cannot remotely discount the fact that in any modern competitive society, Merit is the primary means to determine minimum competency levels while excluding incompetence. That merit is genuine is observed by the fact that no coaching institute in the country can claim success rates greater than 5% in any professional examination. Merely enrolling in coaching institutes does not guarantee success, a natural aptitude for the subject might.

    The idée fixe of these Dalit historians that how can upper caste minorities represent the professional academic majority considering intelligence to be socially determined is answered precisely by the fact, that the number of eligible candidates (i.e. qualified for appearing in professional entrance examinations) produced by the overwhelming majority of the backward castes (including SC/STs) who constitute the bulk of the population is miniscule compared to the dominant numbers produced by minority upper castes due to lack of basic education in the former. Naturally, the staggering number of eligible candidates of the general category enhances the probability of producing more intelligent and competent students in their ranks. By depriving millions of basic education, we deprive them of equality of opportunities. What we instead gain through reservation is equality of outcomes for the creamy layer.

    The absence of merit destroys excellence and ushers a wave of mediocrity rendering people incapable of competence forever which has been the bane of free India. This can be substantiated by the fact that despite a grueling 5.5 years of the MBBS course, SC/STs students lag way behind general students as reflected in the results of the All India Post Graduate Medical Entrance exam 2008 where a SC candidate with Rank 100 had an overall rank of 4500, whereas a ST student with rank 100 had an overall rank of 12,000! In contrast, a General category student with Rank 100, had an overall rank of 101. That means that amongst the top ranking 100 students, only 1 was from the SC/ST category! Suffice to say, the reserved category students are afraid of open competition from general category students and for good reason.

    But even this performance is far more creditable than the dismal figures we have for cut-offs in IIT JEE undergraduate entrance exams which were as low as 1, 4 and 3 for Math, Physics and Chemistry respectively. The inherent ineptitude of these students for a course as tough and challenging as engineering at IIT-JEE makes them susceptible to grave depression and even suicide.

    This is the reason that anti-reservationists decry any more reservations, them being no solution since even after 60 years the SC/ST list has not witnessed a single deletion of any caste proving that not one of them has sufficiently progressed to be set aside from the gambit of reservation, but is instead burgeoning, testifying to the growing backwardness of India. For India is the only nation of the world where people take great pride in calling themselves backward. When demands for claiming backwardness are not met, they culminate in social tensions, in large scale violence and destruction as in case of Gurjars Vs the Rajasthan Government.

    And what about South India, dubbed as India’s better half and repeatedly showcased as the proof for successful implementation of reservations. The NSSO survey reveals the astounding truth that in the land of reservations, in rural TN only 4/1000 ST, 3/1000 SC and 13/1000 OBC female graduates exist. In total, only sixteen out of every thousand people are graduates, i.e. 1.6% graduates in rural TN. Enough to exemplify the failures of reservation.

    This is where we get back to the judgment which despite upholding the validity of reservations has tremendous possibilities for it challenges the notion of caste as the sole criterion for determine legitimacy for reservation and in essence considers reserving only the deserving who have been robbed of their privileges by a dominant minority or the creamy layer constituted by crooked politicians and their cronies in the pseudo-intellectual crowd. It is indeed unfortunate that this move for segregating the creamy layer has not been extended to SC/ST reservations.

    Such progressive intellectuals and leaders who have their own doctrinal axes to grind will fail to realize why the Youth for Equality movement was dissatisfied by the offer for compensation of seats for that was not its goal. It was not for personal promotion but eclipsing an inglorious tradition. Their was a sincere attempt on their part to highlight the moral bankruptcy of all political parties of India who while denying bread and education to its masses, championed retrograde quota policies in order to foster their own vested interest of securing the prosperity of this creamy layer and lead further to a caste based balkanization of India by accentuating hatred and hostility amongst the feuding masses.

    Pseudo arguments about caste oppression in India in their talk abound despite the fact that all Hindus irrespective of caste could occupy no senior position in the administration of foreign Muslim and British governments and thereby suffered varying degrees of persecution for the last 1000 years.

    A century ago, there was a young man with a dynamic vision who believed that education was the manifestation of the perfection already in man. He wanted that education by which character is formed, strength of mind is increased, the intellect is expanded, and by which one can stand on one's own feet. Can these wonderful precepts of Swami Vivekananda be actualized amidst these backward looking reservation policies? This is the question that every concerned citizen of India must ask himself.

    April 13, 2008

  • #2
    On its face (skimmed your post, didn't read the article. ), it seems like a badly flawed attempt and reversing the impact of centuries (millenia?) of oppression.

    One would think that step one would be to improve the primary schooling of "OBCs" so that you could produce higher numbers of "OBC" students qualified to hold their own in college. This, paired with an affirmative action system with some merit requirements*, might do a better job.

    * - I don't know enough about the origins of Hindu civilization to know if AA is required. If there is still widespread prejudice against the great unwashed (OBCs), then AA is justifiable as an interim measure.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

    Comment


    • #3
      Gee, substitute black for OBC and this could have been written about the united states not that long ago.

      And you would have been called a racist for not supporting quotas.
      It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
      RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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      • #4
        Looking at our example, it's not clear that we have the answers.

        Some progress has been made in the US, and yet it's depressing to contemplate how little some things have changed.

        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • #5
          Long read.

          I don't understand much of this, as I am not overly familiar with Indian demographics and politics.

          Obviously a troubling problem, one that is more complex and explosive than US AA issues.

          How do you know a person is in a specific caste?

          I strongly disagree with forced quotas in private institutions-its not really private if you take marching orders on admissions from the state.

          To me, the problem isn't the universities, the problem is with the primary and secondary education systems. AA doesn't really serve as much more than a bandaid or a "good on paper-see we aren't classists/racists"feel good measure when a tremendous amount struggle due to lack of lower tier education-the issue of suicide mentioned in the article is a serious one.

          Is there a severe lack of seating at universities? I would imagine with your massive population, this would be a significant problem. Do you have an middle tier program like we (US) have community colleges or vo-tech schools?

          edit: I didn't mean to rip off Arian's post, I was poking around the net while typing

          Comment


          • #6
            Agreed. I think more than a little progress has been made but will agree that it wasn't the answer and more improvement is still necessary.

            In the work place there was a lot of white backlash against those that thought less the qualified minorities were given promotions that should have gone to other whites. BUT, Guess what, there were some qualified minorities that were promoted that wouldn't have in the olde days. As their pressence at the upper levels increased they were able to create a more fair playing field. Granted this hasn't happened everywhere and it still needs more, but to deny that it hasn't had any impact would be wrong.
            It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
            RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

            Comment


            • #7
              Are they really called Otherwise Backward Castes?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Arrian

                On its face (skimmed your post, didn't read the article. ), it seems like a badly flawed attempt and reversing the impact of centuries (millenia?) of oppression.
                If you would please substantiate that assertion....

                In fact, it has been claimed that it is the OBCs who have been the primary "oppressors", to use your terminology, of the SCs/STs, because they were and are the landowners.

                Originally posted by Arrian

                One would think that step one would be to improve the primary schooling of "OBCs" so that you could produce higher numbers of "OBC" students qualified to hold their own in college. This, paired with an affirmative action system with some merit requirements*, might do a better job.

                * - I don't know enough about the origins of Hindu civilization to know if AA is required. If there is still widespread prejudice against the great unwashed (OBCs), then AA is justifiable as an interim measure.

                -Arrian
                The OBCs are more than half the population.

                I'm more interested in knowing whether or not reservations have worked. Given that the SCs/STs are still as backward as ever, and that this sorry state has continued for over sixty years (SC/ST reservations were instituted in 1947 across India and even earlier in the South of the country), I think they have not. Why, then, should we try the same thing again? Is it not the definition of delusion to do the same things in the same way under the same condition repeatedly and expect a different outcome every time?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Verto
                  Are they really called Otherwise Backward Castes?
                  "Other Backward Castes"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To me, AA seems like government sanctioned racism, but that is because of the environment in which I live. Predominately white-middle class mid-west America.

                    In India, where I have the impression that the caste system is very ingrained into everyday culture, it might be needed to start giving people a fair shot outside of their birth caste.

                    But, I must admit that the only studing of India I did was back in High School about 1990, so things may have changed.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by aneeshm


                      If you would please substantiate that assertion....

                      In fact, it has been claimed that it is the OBCs who have been the primary "oppressors", to use your terminology, of the SCs/STs, because they were and are the landowners.
                      I think you might be looking for a more sophisticated discussion of the issues than you will get here.


                      Originally posted by aneeshm
                      Why, then, should we try the same thing again? Is it not the definition of delusion to do the same things in the same way under the same condition repeatedly and expect a different outcome every time?
                      No, not delusion, but it is typical government, to push the problems off onto the universities by requiring seat reservations rather than diverting more resources to the actual problem, an unequal primary education system. Hmm. require a % of seats at a uni or dump billions (we don't have) into local systems, and not have discernible results for possibly a decade.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by asleepathewheel

                        To me, the problem isn't the universities, the problem is with the primary and secondary education systems.
                        Bingo! I am lucky not because I am studying engineering at a decent college, but because I had the chance to do so at all.

                        This point is addressed in the article, to some extent - it mentions the abject failure of the SSA, a central program of universal education.

                        Originally posted by asleepathewheel

                        Is there a severe lack of seating at universities? I would imagine with your massive population, this would be a significant problem.
                        Absolutely. The competition is fierce.

                        I think it has more to do with governmental meddling in all aspects of the function of all educational institutions, including private ones, than just the population. Because if such competition exists, such demand also exists, and probably the only reason it's not getting filled by the market - even when people are willing to pay obscene sums for education - is because the supply is artificially limited by the licenses granted by the government, and the control it has over all institutions, upto and including the setting of the syllabus and HR policy.

                        Originally posted by asleepathewheel

                        Do you have an middle tier program like we (US) have community colleges or vo-tech schools?
                        We do, but the reverence for the "pure" education runs deep, so a science/engineering/medical degree is always valued far, far, far more highly than a vocational one.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Donegeal
                          To me, AA seems like government sanctioned racism, but that is because of the environment in which I live. Predominately white-middle class mid-west America.

                          In India, where I have the impression that the caste system is very ingrained into everyday culture, it might be needed to start giving people a fair shot outside of their birth caste.

                          But, I must admit that the only studing of India I did was back in High School about 1990, so things may have changed.
                          India is a transformed place. TBH, if you took my ten-year old self and brought him to where I am today (I am twenty, ten years later), there is no way in hell I would recognise this as my own country. But then again, I've always moved among the social elites of the middle classes, where your caste didn't matter anyway (even in school, there was a totally ruthless meritocratic aristocracy since the fourth grade).

                          The sad part is that 75% of India's college graduates, including the ones who come through the normal, non-quota system, do not have the skills their degree indicates they have. They are, effectively, unemployable.

                          When you have a government monopolising something, and that thing is in such high demand, I am not surprised that quality is degraded. That is why I consider myself lucky to get an education of the quality I am receiving.








                          I also wish to address the "millennia" of oppression argument in a bit more detail. It is usually invoked with regard to whichever group happens to be wanting to have itself included in the "backwards" list (yes, they compete for this "privilege") so that they may reap the benefits of reservations. The "Brahminical oppressors" are also supposed to be the "root cause" of this oppression.

                          There is one thing about this argument I have never really understood. The percentage of Brahmins in the general population has never risen beyond three to five per cent anywhere in India. They have also never been significant landowners. Nor have they been in positions of political power for any significant length of time. Nor have they ever been economically dominant, even in the trades. They also do not have a martial tradition, unlike some other castes.

                          How, then, I ask, did this group manage to "oppress" the remaining 97% of the population? Not by power - they never had any. Not by land - they didn't own as much as many other, more settled castes. Not by money - they never had as much as the ones at the top. Nor by sheer coercion - they had neither the numbers nor the tradition. Then how? Hand-waving and declaring to the remaining 97%, "You! You're oppressed, you hear?" Magic? Supernatural powers? Kryptonite?

                          The point of the above thought experiment was to point out that we take many things for granted in discourse, which we would do better to question.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rah
                            As their pressence at the upper levels increased they were able to create a more fair playing field.
                            What does that mean? They favored their brothas and sistas? I fail to see how that can be referred to as "leveling the playing field." In fact it's quite the opposite.
                            ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by aneeshm


                              If you would please substantiate that assertion....

                              In fact, it has been claimed that it is the OBCs who have been the primary "oppressors", to use your terminology, of the SCs/STs, because they were and are the landowners.
                              Like I said, I skimmed your post. How did these "OBC's" (seems such an outrageous name, btw) get so... well, "B" in the first place? I assumed (not always a good idea) it was b/c they were lower castes who were disadvantaged.

                              The OBCs are more than half the population.
                              I read that part. So?

                              I'm more interested in knowing whether or not reservations have worked. Given that the SCs/STs are still as backward as ever, and that this sorry state has continued for over sixty years (SC/ST reservations were instituted in 1947 across India and even earlier in the South of the country), I think they have not. Why, then, should we try the same thing again? Is it not the definition of delusion to do the same things in the same way under the same condition repeatedly and expect a different outcome every time?
                              This is beyond me. I can say that our attempts here in the USA have had mixed results. Some good, some bad, and the debate goes on. The problem, I think, is that real change tends to be generational. People don't change, really. Their kids, on the other hand...

                              -Arrian
                              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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