Economic Literacy

[Patroklos]

Krazyhorse, you realize the money from the current rebate will have to come from somewhere to, correct? In that case one is no worse than the other, especially since we both know all those programs will be paid for by more debt anyway.

The reason this one is better is because it doesn't give irresponsible consumers (Americans) a wad of cash to go waste on crap, but rather a gradual savings that they will still spend, but more likely on things they need day to day over time without knowing it.

Both efforts are stupid, but this one would be better (if for no other reason than it costs far less money to implememt).

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Krazyhorse, you realize the money from the current rebate will have to come from somewhere to, correct? In that case one is no worse than the other, especially since we both know all those programs will be paid for by more debt anyway.

ffs, pay attention: I explicitly stated that all deficit increases were paid for by the future. Of course "rebates" are included in that. I was explaining to you why this is a great deal stupider than the rebate cheques. Those are a direct transfer from the future to the mass of citizenry. Gas tax cuts during the summertime are mostly a transfer from the future to refineries, partly a transfer to drivers and to top it off actual wealth destruction via increased traffic. I cannot think of anything more distortionary than a gas tax cut during the summertime, other than possibly increasing the agro-subsidy.

The reason this one is better is because it doesn't give irresponsible consumers (Americans) a wad of cash to go waste on crap, but rather a gradual savings that they will still spend, but more likely on things they need day to day over time without knowing it.

You sound like a 6 year-old. I was trying to talk big boy talk to you, but I guess you're not in the mood to actually think.

[KrazyHorse]

Both efforts are stupid, but this one would be better (if for no other reason than it costs far less money to implememt).

It's a smaller (10 bill vs 150 bill) program, but is a far stupider use per dollar. Far, far, far stupider. There are a significant number of legitimate economists who favour the rebate plan. You'd have to look pretty hard to find one in favour of this.

[Patroklos]

Gas tax cuts during the summertime are mostly a transfer from the future to refineries, partly a transfer to drivers and to top it off actual wealth destruction via increased traffic.

Your assumption that traffic will significantly increase due to a $.20 reduction in price when it did not decrease due to few times greater increase is based on nothing.

You sound like a 6 year-old. I was trying to talk big boy talk to you, but I guess you're not in the mood to actually think.

Thats funny, I figured it was 6 year olds that decend into unwarranted insults for no reason. I mean damn, did you miss your morning coffee?

You'd have to look pretty hard to find one in favour of this.

Perhaps, but how about we allow them more than 24 hours to get their notes together/schedule their evening news appearances one way or the other.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Your assumption that traffic will significantly increase due to a $.20 reduction in price when it did not decrease due to few times greater increase

On the contrary, the price elasticity of short-term demand for gasoline is ~-0.25, as found by numerous studies.

http://md1.csa.com/partners/viewrecord.php?requester=gs&collection=TRD&recid=0237053EN&q=&uid=789051502&setcookie=yes

http://www2.cege.ucl.ac.uk/cts/tsu/papers/transprev243.pdf

is based on nothing.

You provide nothing! You provide no evidence! You criminal!

Seriously, pattycakes: some days you're good for a serious discussion, but other days you just sputter on...

[Patroklos]

On the contrary, the price elasticity of short-term demand for gasoline is ~-0.25, as found by numerous studies.

I am paying far more than $.25 more per gallon in gasoline, and I don't drive any less. Nor does anyone else to any significant degree it would seem. So again, why would an even lesser degree of decrease in price automatically lead to overwheming usage of the roads?

I am still trying to figure out why you are so uptight about a relatively benign and polite post from me, which btw you have countered only by stating what you think.

Honestly, where is this hostility coming from?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I am paying far more than $.25 more per gallon in gasoline, and I don't drive any less. Nor does anyone else to any significant degree it would seem.

Right, so I give you links to academic papers by people who actually study this **** and you tell me that you don't drive any less.

Well, to play with anecdotes:

1) My neighbours bought a more fuel-efficient car than they otherwise would have.

2) Two of my coworkers began carpooling to work.

3) Another coworker decided to move from 30 miles away to 3 miles away from work. Partly motivated by gas prices.

I am still trying to figure out why you are so uptight about a relatively benign and polite post from me

Because I expect more from you. You only responded tangentially to a well thought out and cogent post from myself, and I suspect you didn't even fully read it until I started laying on the smackdown.

which btw you have countered only by stating what you think.

On the contrary, as soon as you questioned any of my factual premises I provided links to academic papers.

[KrazyHorse]

Elevate your game, Patty. I'm just trying to make you a better poster (and, by extension, person).

[CrONoS]

Too many people derive their macroeconomic POV from self anecdotal experience.

On a side note; Patroklos could claim that an elasticity of 0.25 is not a lot.

[CrONoS]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
quote:
On the contrary, the price elasticity of short-term demand for gasoline is ~-0.25, as found by numerous studies.

Originally posted by Patroklos


I am paying far more than $.25 more per gallon in gasoline, and I don't drive any less.

Maybe you can blame my lack of english understanding, but do you know what is concept of the elasticity of demand?

[Patroklos]

From your second source, about the UK and not the US (the other being from 1996, and useless to the discussion for other reasons)...

The price elasticities for fuel consumption are higher than the elasticities for vehicle-km, i.e. when fuel price rises, people reduce their fuel consumption more
than their mileage.

So use of the roads does not increase if the behavior is true for price decreases as well (or at least from the data in the source, not enough to matter).

On a side note; Patroklos could claim that an elasticity of 0.25 is not a lot.

I could, and it seems the tables from source #2 (at a glance, I didn't disect them) agree.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Krazyhorse, you realize the money from the current rebate will have to come from somewhere to, correct? In that case one is no worse than the other, especially since we both know all those programs will be paid for by more debt anyway.

Wrong. The rebates should pay for themselves unless there is no recession at all. A gas tax holliday will simply put tax payer money in the hands of the oil companies.

The reason this one is better is because it doesn't give irresponsible consumers (Americans) a wad of cash to go waste on crap, but rather a gradual savings that they will still spend, but more likely on things they need day to day over time without knowing it.

Ever hear of the paradox of thrift? No, I didn't think so.