America = 20th Century, Rest of World = 21st Century

[Lancer]

You spent 24 hours on the NY subway and lived?!?! Bah! Bull****, it cannot be.

[MarkG]

i spent 24 hours in new york, of which around 2 using the subway

[FrostyBoy]

Are they like medieval european catacombs too?

I guess it's good for one thing: Real life Diablo RPG playing, which I ain't into.


Or it could pass for a Fallout shelter for those who like Fallout.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy
Thanks Rufus, I was waiting your post.

Maids -
The indonesians make more money here than they do in their own country.

Not relevant. My point is that Singapore has the per capita GDP of a first-world country, but the wages of its lowest quintile of workers would be considered slave wages in the West. That matters. As one Singapore columnist put it, "Singapore isn't a clean city; it's a city with a lot of people constantly cleaning it" -- and it can only afford all those people by paying them so little, and trusting they'll be grateful for the crumbs.

Cars
Singapore has a lot more cars than I would have thought, even not-well-to-do people and teens have them - and are modern, nice ones. Also, I think the high cost of cars is a good thing, can you imagine if it were easy to get a car in Singapore? Havoc!

Again, not the point. Singapore is a gigantic exercise in social control. The government uses its taxation power to make cars unaffordable as a way of preventing traffic problems; it uses both carrot (subsidies) and stick (legal control of land) to make sure that the majority of Singaporeans are crowded into HDBs, living in a square footage most westerners would find intolerable; it keeps a cap on housing demand by simply forbidding unmarried people under the age of 35 from owning property.

My point is, you can get a place like Singapore if you're willing to submit to the kind of control the Singapore government exercises. It should be a point of honor that Americans won't do that.

LKY got Singapore to a "ready" state, a stage where everything is organised, modern, clean, accessible, etc. From this point on, it will develop the tourist industry, let's not forget the Singapore Zoo, Bird Park and upcoming Resorts (which will hold the world's largest oceanarium). World's best Airport and World's 2nd busiest port (or is it 3rd now?). I give Singapore another 20-30 years, you will start to see the culture here explode like fireworks.

I think LKY is one of the truly visionary leaders of the 20th century, up there with Ataturk. But you can't separate what Singapore is economically from what it is politically. You won't see a vibrant culture emerge here until the country actually democratizes -- and once that happens, things are going to get a lot messier, in every sense of the word. If that doesn't happen, it will remain what William Gibson dubbed it a decade ago: Disneyland with a Death Penalty.

And regarding the whole city/suburbs thing a page or two back: Singapore's suburb is Johor Bahru, and it's a dump; you know that, even if Patroklos doesn't.

[FrostyBoy]

The system works. Poor Africans, Indians, whatever, would love to work in developed countries for that kind of money, the life is harder where they are, sure they miss home and stuff, but thats life.

You kill two stones with one bird (i know, but I like it), you help the poorer countries develop and you keep your city clean at low cost. I mean.. is it really THAT bad? I think it's a brilliant idea, great for the economy, great for progress, and it's working beautifuly so far, aside from the maid abuse and what-not, but that's minor.

By the time every country in the world is developed, everything will be automated. (we hope).

I am optimistic about Singapore's future, it will eventually democratize, as you say, but it will do so cautiously, and rightly so, you can't just give freedom to those who don't know what to do with it.

And JB is not Singapore, it's Malaysia and Malaysia is a different story.

[Lancer]

Deep breaths Rufus, come on, ten deep breaths...

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy
You kill two stones with one bird (i know, but I like it), you help the poorer countries develop and you keep your city clean at low cost. I mean.. is it really THAT bad? I think it's a brilliant idea, great for the economy, great for progress, and it's working beautifuly so far, aside from the maid abuse and what-not, but that's minor.

As an expedient? Sure, it works. But don't forget that all those people Singapore brings in to do it's literal dirty work have no rights here. So the bargain Singapore has struck is that it's willing to pay peanuts to people, and deprive them of even the truncated rights Singaporeand have, in exchange for doing the worst work in the country; its good fortune is that its in the neighborhood of so many countries that are screwed up enough top make that bargain palatable. It makes Singapore an easy place to live, especially for white expats like you and me; but it's hardly something to be admired, which is why neither your country nor mine would stand for a similar arrangement.

And JB isn't Singapore, but it is Singapore's suburb -- the place an enormous number of workers live because they can't afford Singapore. If you're comparing Singapore to another city, then JB is a legit part of that discussion, because it's central to working economy of Singapore.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy
Are they like medieval european catacombs too?

just look at the font used in their stations

[FrostyBoy]

But it's not all bad, the whitey's treat them as part of the family, I'm sure they're loving it.

Some of the Singaporean owners are brutal, but in the community, these people (the owners) are looked down upon, so it's not as if it's acceptable in society.

I'm sure as time passes, things will improve, especially as foriegn relations tighten up around here.

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by MarkG

just look at the font used in their stations

At least its clean. Must be the Mexicans? Foriegners do a great job cleaning our ****.

So that's how to solve Chicago's problems.

Where I come from, New Zealand, we wouldn't tolerate under developed countries cleaning our stuff up, we'd rather give it to people who look ugly, coz it's an ugly job. Odd thing is, those foreigners from under developed countries in NZ are wealthier than the locals.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Whatever else the pros and cons are of each place, I will say this: even at their worst, American cities inspire tremendous affection from the natives. Living in New York at its most dire (the mid-1980s), I still was surrounded by New Yorkers who would tell you at the drop of a hat, "man, I love this city!"

I have never, ever, heard a Singaporean say that about Singapore. Expats, yes, but never a Singaporean.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I know. That's what makes you so funny, in a sad, sad sort of way.

i was particularly amused by the way he posted a picture of a british road to demonstrate how there aren't any new cars in chicago.

[classical_hero]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Again, not the point. Singapore is a gigantic exercise in social control. The government uses its taxation power to make cars unaffordable as a way of preventing traffic problems; it uses both carrot (subsidies) and stick (legal control of land) to make sure that the majority of Singaporeans are crowded into HDBs, living in a square footage most westerners would find intolerable; it keeps a cap on housing demand by simply forbidding unmarried people under the age of 35 from owning property.

My point is, you can get a place like Singapore if you're willing to submit to the kind of control the Singapore government exercises. It should be a point of honor that Americans won't do that.

Well considering the space that Singapore has to offer for it's residents, it does not have much room, so it needs to make housing scarce as a result. IT is just due to the geography.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by classical_hero

Well considering the space that Singapore has to offer for it's residents, it does not have much room, so it needs to make housing scarce as a result. IT is just due to the geography.

I'm not saying it's a bad housing system, or that it isn't pragmatic, or that it doesn't work. I'm saying that the only thing that makes it possible is a level of government control and intrusion that no self-respecting Westerner would tolerate -- so there's no point in comparing Singapore to a Western city unless what you're championing is authoritarianism itself.

[Patroklos]

And regarding the whole city/suburbs thing a page or two back: Singapore's suburb is Johor Bahru, and it's a dump; you know that, even if Patroklos doesn't.

I do now, is my picture indicative of what that place looks like?

And since you seem willing to answer a question honestly, how much of Singapores workforce commutes from outside Singapore proper?

EDIT: The answer Frosty has avoided giving for two pages now, thanks

"And JB isn't Singapore, but it is Singapore's suburb -- the place an enormous number of workers live because they can't afford Singapore. If you're comparing Singapore to another city, then JB is a legit part of that discussion, because it's central to working economy of Singapore."