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**Sirotnikov** · March 10, 2008, 17:58

Some more iranian involvement:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3512014.ece

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

He is in the vanguard of the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas which is growing into a disciplined army, trained to fight for victory rather than be consigned to the “martyr’s death” of the suicide bomber.

Israel has long insisted that Iran is behind this training. Last week Yuval Diskin, the head of the Israeli internal security service Shin Bet, said as much when he claimed that Hamas had “started to dispatch people to Iran, tens and a promise of hundreds”. He provided no evidence.

The Hamas commander, however, confirmed for the first time that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard has been training its men in Tehran for more than two years and is currently honing the skills of 150 fighters.

The details he gave suggested that, if anything, Shin Bet has underestimated the extent of Iran’s influence on Hamas’s increasingly sophisticated tactics and weaponry.

Speaking on the record but withholding his identity as a target of Israeli forces, the commander, who has a sparse moustache and oiled black hair, said Hamas had been sending fighters to Iran for training in both field tactics and weapons technology since Israeli troops pulled out of the Gaza strip of Palestinian territory in 2005. Others go to Syria for more basic training.

“We have sent seven ‘courses’ of our fighters to Iran,” he said. “During each course, the group receives training that he will use to increase our capacity to fight.”

The most promising members of each group stay longer for an advanced course and return as trainers themselves, he said.

So far, 150 members of Qassam have passed through training in Tehran, where they study for between 45 days and six months at a closed military base under the command of the elite Revolutionary Guard force.

Of the additional 150 who are in Tehran now, some will go into Hamas’s research unit if they are not deemed strong enough for fighting.

Conditions at the base are strict, the commander said. The Palestinians are allowed out only one day a week. Even then, they may leave the base only in a group and with Iranian security. They shop and “always come back with really good boots”.

According to the commander, a further 650 Hamas fighters have trained in Syria under instructors who learnt their techniques in Iran. Sixty-two are in Syria now.

But what Hamas values most is the knowledge that comes directly from Iran. Some of it was used to devastating effect by the militant group Hezbollah against Israeli forces in Lebanon in 2006.

“They come home with more abilities that we need,” said the Hamas commander, “such as high-tech capabilities, knowledge about land mines and rockets, sniping, and fighting tactics like the ones used by Hezbollah, when they were able to come out of tunnels from behind the Israelis and attack them successfully.

“Those who go to Iran have to swear on the Koran not to reveal details, even to their mothers.”

He said the Hamas military, which numbers about 15,000 fighters, was modelling itself on Hezbollah. “We don’t have tanks. We don’t have planes. We are street fighters and we will use our own ways,” he said.

Nodding in agreement was his companion, another senior Qassam fighter, from Hamas’s manufacturing wing. Dressed in a new, olive-green uniform, he said his job entailed “cooking” – putting together the explosive mixture that Hamas inserts into Qassam rockets.

Everyone was working overtime, he added. He too had been out all night. He said he had launched five mortars and faced heavy machinegun fire in return from Israeli lines.

The commander was particularly impressed with advances made using Iranian technology. “One of the things that has been helpful is that they have taught us how to use the most ordinary things we have here and make them into explosives,” he said.

Such technology had been most useful of all in developing the Qassam rocket and mines deployed against Israeli tanks.

Hamas had just developed the Shawas 4, a new generation of mine, with Iranian expertise, he added.

“We send our best brains to Tehran. It would be a waste of money to send them and then have them come back with nothing.”

They travelled to Egypt, flew to Syria and, on arrival and departure from Tehran, were allowed through without a stamp for security reasons.

**snoopy369** · March 10, 2008, 17:59

United States unveils Terrorist Leader Currency

90 years ago

WASHINGTON, DC (AP) -- The "United States" issued a new One-Dollar Bill Monday, in commemoration of a top Rebel commander wanted by the United Kingdom.

The bill, which features a picture of George Washington wearing a wig, was unveiled at a ceremony attended by the alleged United States' President, Woodrow Wilson, and replaces an earlier bill also featuring the rebel commander.

Washington was one of the world's most feared Rebel strategists, accused of leading a group whose members dumped thousands of pounds of tea into the Boston harbor, and killing thousands of British soldiers during an illegal rebellion in the 1770s and 1780s. He was also blamed for various boycotts of British goods during the 1760s.

In the 1780s, he was declared "President" of the self-styled "United States" and plotted with the French, then enemies of the British state.

How about them apples...

**DinoDoc** · March 10, 2008, 18:11

Siro: You do remember that Iran funds Hezbollah, right? Did you expect them not to honor their creation?

**Sirotnikov** · March 10, 2008, 18:12

that is very remotely funny.

using terrorist tactics does not make one a freedom fighter. one man's terrorist is still another man's terrorist.

**DaShi** · March 10, 2008, 18:13

Everyone likes to feel appreciated.

**Sirotnikov** · March 10, 2008, 18:14

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Siro: You do remember that Iran funds Hezbollah, right? Did you expect them not to honor their creation?

Hezbullah is an Iranian front organization.
It was created with Iranian money and indoctrination from the very beginning.

I'm posting this not because it is news to me, but because people should be aware of the Iranian involvement in terrorism in Gaza, in Lebanon, in Iraq etc.

**Wezil** · March 10, 2008, 18:14

I'm told the stamp will send your mail where it wasn't expected to go and/or set it on fire.

**snoopy369** · March 10, 2008, 18:27

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
that is very remotely funny.

using terrorist tactics does not make one a freedom fighter. one man's terrorist is still another man's terrorist.

I'm glad you think so

The comparisons are remarkably similar, to be honest, except that the American rebels did not kill civilians (as far as I know...) Perhaps that's the line to be drawn - terrorists kill civilians, while freedom fighters don't; but in the modern world it's harder and harder to draw that line.

For that matter, the Israelis certainly kill palestinian civilians, without necessarily going through due process to ensure they are really terrorists themselves... and presumably the same from Hezbollah. And didn't the US kill plenty of German civilians in 1944-45, and similar in Japan?

It's a very fine line indeed... my point is simply that perhaps Iran considers him in the same light we consider FDR, or Washington. Fighters for freedom who unfortunately had to do things that were considered 'wrong' at the time by some. Certainly I don't consider him to have been 'right' or a good person, but it's not like his side has a monopoly on the bad guys in this - or any - conflict...

**DinoDoc** · March 10, 2008, 18:34

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I'm posting this not because it is news to me,...

All your going to get is people attempting to draw false moral eqivilancies between your country and Hezbollah.

**Patroklos** · March 10, 2008, 18:38

It's a very fine line indeed...

No, its not. There is a very thick and distinct line between having the killing of civilians as your primary objective and killing civilians in pursuit of legitimate military target.

There is an even more distinct line between killing civilians in pursuit of legitimate military targets and killing civilians after bending over backwards to the best of your ability and historical so while in pursuit of legitimate military targets.

**Wezil** · March 10, 2008, 18:43

Originally posted by Patroklos

No, its not. There is a very thick and distinct line between having the killing of civilians as your primary objective and killing civilians in pursuit of legitimate military target.

There is an even more distinct line between killing civilians in pursuit of legitimate military targets and killing civilians after bending over backwards to the best of your ability and historical so while in pursuit of legitimate military targets.

You would have difficulty explaining the bombing of some German and Japanese cities with that.

**Kuciwalker** · March 10, 2008, 18:44

Originally posted by snoopy369
I'm glad you think so

The comparisons are remarkably similar, to be honest, except that the American rebels did not kill civilians (as far as I know...)

Full stop.

**snoopy369** · March 10, 2008, 18:46

Originally posted by Patroklos

No, its not. There is a very thick and distinct line between having the killing of civilians as your primary objective and killing civilians in pursuit of legitimate military target.

There is an even more distinct line between killing civilians in pursuit of legitimate military targets and killing civilians after bending over backwards to the best of your ability and historical so while in pursuit of legitimate military targets.

I think the people of Dresden, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima might disagree with that statement. I'm not saying that it wasn't quite possibly the right thing to do in terms of saving American lives, and ending the war; but it's not a moral absolute, and you could make the same statement about the actions of Hezbollah/Hamas. They consider the Israelis as a people to be militant invaders of their soil, as they do not acknowledge the legitimacy of the British grant of land to Israel, and thus consider their entire populations to be non-civilian; just as the Israelis generally consider Palestinians non-civilian when it suits their needs.

I don't agree with their opinions or their actions, but I don't see why it should be a surprise that they support this guy, who is to them a freedom fighter, fighting the invading Israelis. Particularly when the latter make little attempt to prove themselves as anything other than a land-hungry aggressive expansionist ...

**Sirotnikov** · March 10, 2008, 18:48

For that matter, the Israelis certainly kill palestinian civilians, without necessarily going through due process to ensure they are really terrorists themselves... and presumably the same from Hezbollah. And didn't the US kill plenty of German civilians in 1944-45, and similar in Japan?

There is so much fallacious moral equivalence in that quote that I'm frankly disgusted.

I guess you should really promote the idea of disbanding the army and the airforce, instead sending swarms of lawyers and jurors to fight off heavily armed enemies.

Terrorist attacks performed by foreign combatants (usually with state support) are not criminal offences. They are acts of war - part of an attrition proxy war waged by foreign actors.

It's a very fine line indeed... my point is simply that perhaps Iran considers him in the same light we consider FDR, or Washington. Fighters for freedom who unfortunately had to do things that were considered 'wrong' at the time by some. Certainly I don't consider him to have been 'right' or a good person, but it's not like his side has a monopoly on the bad guys in this - or any - conflict...

Apparently for you the line is so fine that you trip right over.

A person who has dedicated all of his life to perfecting violence, and targeting innocent people, is not comparable to a statesman like G. Washington. Acts of carnage against innocent population is not the same as waging war on an occupying army.

Who exactly was an occupier on the TWA flight? Which American diplomat occupied Lebanon? Which Argenitian Jew did?

Announcement

Iran applauds life achievement of arch-terrorist

Iran applauds life achievement of arch-terrorist

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