A Thought Experiment About the Viability of Communism

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Neither Marx or Lenin predicted the problem of alternatives to a market system that are not communism, totalitarianism specifically. I think the question is not when capitalism will run it's course but whether people will be ready for communism or not at that time.

Marx would not have questioned whether "the people" would be ready for Communisn at the end of Capitalism. That is his whole theory, that the success of Capitalism would make Communism inevitable.

It was Lenin that decided to shortcut the process, thinking that if we already knew the path ahead, why wait for history - take history by the horns and control it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
exactly, depends what you want to focus on... but looking at the basics - did China like Cuba have a commie revolution, yes... is it ruled by communist party, yes... do they consider themself Communist, yes... so for all intents and purposes it's a Commie country and allowing the rich to own property, do business is a communist development, accepted by the party etc...

They aren't really a communist party and I don't think they actually think that they are, any more that NK believes that they are democratic. Indeed, they created laws that protect rich property owners. They know that they are not communist anymore. They made a conscience decision.

Deciding to make it harder for employers to fire employees is not a conscience decision to choose communism. France isn't trying to be communist, at least not in a non-French way.

[chequita guevara]

morans, the lot of you

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Kidicious


They aren't really a communist party and I don't think they actually think that they are, any more that NK believes that they are democratic. Indeed, they created laws that protect rich property owners. They know that they are not communist anymore. They made a conscience decision.

Deciding to make it harder for employers to fire employees is not a conscience decision to choose communism. France isn't trying to be communist, at least not in a non-French way.

What is the difference between the development of a system and "they decided not to be communist anymore"?

just the easiest read here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China

will tell you that China is very much communist in effect and here is the dude who made it all possible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping

sure they are not Maoist or Stalinist anymore, but they are just evolved communism... if USSR managed to transition in 1980's and did not fall apart in 1990... would you still consider them commies, - I am sure you would ...

Yugo ommunisim was a lot more advanced than Chineze in 1980's but the state fell apart due to inbuilt instability... but despite of it being progressive economically and socially, the west still considered Yugoslavia to be a communist state... China is no different today.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap


Marx would not have questioned whether "the people" would be ready for Communisn at the end of Capitalism. That is his whole theory, that the success of Capitalism would make Communism inevitable.

It was Lenin that decided to shortcut the process, thinking that if we already knew the path ahead, why wait for history - take history by the horns and control it.

I agree with that. I was commenting on your question about what will happen when capitalism reaches it's apex.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
sure they are not Maoist or Stalinist anymore, but they are just evolved communism... if USSR managed to transition in 1980's and did not fall apart in 1990... would you still consider them commies, - I am sure you would ...

They are not evolved communism. That's a very strange idea. In fact, the only real reason that they were communist in the first place is because they didn't believe in creating class differences. They have abandoned that now, so they are in no way whatsoever communist. Capitalism is not evolved communism. The problem is that they were never communist in the first place but they at least were against class differences.

[Cort Haus]

Those who have drawn distinctions between Marxism and Communism are correct (eg: Ecthy, GePap). Aside from the fact that most communists I've known were not Stalinist and did not support the USSR while it still existed, there is a whole raft of ideas about progress and liberty that Marx believed in that are relevant today, even within an entirely capitalist context. In fact, they are more in line with laissez-faire economic and social systems than the rising 'illiberal liberalism' with eco-fundamentalist topping.

As for communism, Marx saw it as a system to eventually supersede capitalism that would be built on the achievements of an advanced state of capitalism. He also lived in a place in space-time where the discrepancy between the urban industrial rich and poor was so shocking that it seemed that revolution must one day be inevitable.

Places like feudal Russia, agrarian China, Africa and Latin America were never the kind of economies that Marx's notion of communism was supposed to be able to flourish in.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
there is a whole raft of ideas about progress and liberty that Marx believed in that are relevant today, even within an entirely capitalist context. In fact, they are more in line with laissez-faire economic and social systems than the rising 'illiberal liberalism' with eco-fundamentalist topping.

Like what?