Cuban Embargo: Stupid idea or failed policy?

[Wezil]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

At the beginning, IRRC, you simply noted the existence of an opposition as excuse enough for the embargo.

Yeah that's right. We should embargo every country with an opposition. I'm sure you thought that's what I said. Be serious.

Most of them are accused of violence, because that's the charge, that if it sticks, guarantees a long sentence. Assata Shakur, not on the list because she escaped to Cuba, for example, was accused of murder for being in the car with someone who did in fact kill someone else. The state doesn't even bother to argue she pulled the trigger. Merely being there was enough.

Here come the excuses again. Strange how I knew that would be the case (violent crimes) w/o looking even one of them up.

So, we, and Canada, do quite a bit of business with countries that do kill people for political reasons.

To our collective shame.

Like all those people fleeing Darfur to go to Chad? The main cause of death in the Darfur "genocide" is starvation in Chad. If Cuba were so horrible that people were willing to do anything to get out, they'd go to Haiti and the Bahamas. Actually, some do go to the Bahamas, then they try and get here so they can get their free government handouts.

You are hopelessly naive on this point. Let's move on.

How big is that?

Can't be bothered to look. Feel free to wiki it if you are curious. As I mentioned earlier, we accept Cuban political refugees here (but not American ones).

And most people calling for change in Cuba don't get jailed.

So as long as it is only some it is okay? Very nice.

Actually, we didn't get to chose to have it that way. Our system was designed that way and nearly impossible to change.

I agree but it is still your choice. When people like Nadar, Perot, etc come along you mock them and people that vote for them. A new way is there if you want it.

I wonder how democratic your country would be if we were trying to destroy you while funding your opposition.

Ah, so Cuba would be democratic if it weren't for the big bad USA. The USA prefers the commies I suppose? That's quite the pretzel you are twisted into.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Wezil
Surely you jest? Can you not see the difference? The political opposition in Canada wastes money in Ottawa. The political opposition in Cuba is removed (one way or another).

Wastes money? What does that mean? There is opposition to the government in the US. There's just not a need to remove as many of them. Even though the opposition in Cuba is just as small of a minority they can be very dangerous to the wishes of the majority of people. This has been proven over time. The government in Cuba has to treat them as though they are dangerous to the welfare of the nation at times. It would be the same way in the US, in fact it has been in the past if you know our history you would know that.

They fought a revolution. Isn't that enough? The enemies are still very powerfull. As Castro has stated, "I stay in power because the US tries so hard to remove me"

The war is meant to be continuous...

Cuba aint animal farm bud. The war will be over when the US and Cuban exiles want it to be over. If you want an end talk to them.

You are deliberately obtuse. There are Cuban political refugees around the world and well documented cases of human rights abuse. There is considerable opposition to that regime.

There's opposition to the US. So what?

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Wastes money? What does that mean? There is opposition to the government in the US. There's just not a need to remove as many of them. Even though the opposition in Cuba is just as small of a minority they can be very dangerous to the wishes of the majority of people. This has been proven over time. The government in Cuba has to treat them as though they are dangerous to the welfare of the nation at times. It would be the same way in the US, in fact it has been in the past if you know our history you would know that.

Surely senior Democrats should be ripe for arrest then, no? You are silly.

Cuba aint animal farm bud. The war will be over when the US and Cuban exiles want it to be over. If you want an end talk to them.

Cute. Meangingless, but cute. Btw, wrong novel.

There's opposition to the US. So what?

Do you even know what a refugee is Kid? There are Americans strolling around Canada on a regular basis, they aren't refugees.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Wezil
Surely senior Democrats should be ripe for arrest then, no? You are silly.

Democrats? You actually think that they are the opposition? People can vote in Cuba. They just can't vote for capitalism.

Cuba aint animal farm bud. The war will be over when the US and Cuban exiles want it to be over. If you want an end talk to them.

Cute. Meangingless, but cute. Btw, wrong novel.

Just trying to see exactly how drunk and or stoned you are right now. Your posts aren't making that much sense. 1984?

Do you even know what a refugee is Kid? There are Americans strolling around Canada on a regular basis, they aren't refugees.

Like this. I don't know what that is suppose to mean.

[Patroklos]

So are the Bahamas.

Naw, because of the military run checkpoints and the papers hardly ever issued for travel, the US is much closer for most Cubans

Besides, what is 5-10 extra miles adrift to trade Haiti for the US?

Democrats? You actually think that they are the opposition? People can vote in Cuba. They just can't vote for capitalism.

So in other words, they can't vote. Who was the Cuban opposition candidate last year?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

when I save some money, I'll go on holiday to Cuba and send you all lots of pretty pictures so you can see what is it on the inside of the embargo

behind the Cuban curtain

[Barnabas]

WTF is an economic prisoner?


I think Castro is a dictator, and Cuba a dictatorship, but if we trade with China and Saudi Arabia, then it is silly to embargo Cuba.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Barnabas
WTF is an economic prisoner?

Presumably everyone born in the ghetto, or at least the especially desperate subset of this group that is inevitably driven to technically illegal acts by no choice of their own.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Naw, because of the military run checkpoints and the papers hardly ever issued for travel, the US is much closer for most Cubans

Besides, what is 5-10 extra miles adrift to trade Haiti for the US?

Actually, Haiti is considerably closer to Cuba than Key West. It's about 50 miles to Haiti as opposed to 90 from Havana to Key West. The Bahamas are just about as far as Haiti, and Jamaica is as far as Florida. And, because the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard sweep the Straights of Florida, it's also a heck of a lot harder to get here, as the U.S. will send you back if they catch you before you set your foot on dry land.

But if Cuba is so harsh, why don't the tens of thousands of doctors they send around the world defect? In fact, I just read that one of the problems they have is that some of their doctors leave their posts and try to return to Cuba instead.

Cuba's aid programme in Bolivia

We are discussing why a very small number of the 2,000 Cuban medical personnel sent to Bolivia from the island over the past two years have jumped ship and gone home.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Barnabas
WTF is an economic prisoner?


I think Castro is a dictator, and Cuba a dictatorship, but if we trade with China and Saudi Arabia, then it is silly to embargo Cuba.

Not just silly, capitalist silly.

China has the cheap labor and SA has the oil. What does Cuba have?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Wezil
Yeah that's right. We should embargo every country with an opposition. I'm sure you thought that's what I said. Be serious.

You started off by trying to make a comparison to South Africa, where upon Kidicious made the statement there was not a democratic opposition to justify an embargo. You actually never claimed there was a democratic opposition, just opposition. In the context of the previous conversation, then, the statement means that the existence of an opposition justifies the embargo.

Kidicious' statement is very likely false, but as a great number of the opposition in Cuba receive funds and equipment from the U.S., their commitment to democracy can be questioned. The Miami Cuban commitment to democracy can easily be shown to be false (as well as the New Jersey Cuban opposition). Any attempt to counter their message is not met by surveillance and jailing, but by violence. Opposing the official exile line can get you killed. I have personally been attacked by a Cuban mob for saying that a Cuban terrorist, Luis Posada Carilles, ought to go to jail. The record of violence and murder in Miami alone shows what a lie "democratic" opposition is.

Most of them are accused of violence, because that's the charge, that if it sticks, guarantees a long sentence. Assata Shakur, not on the list because she escaped to Cuba, for example, was accused of murder for being in the car with someone who did in fact kill someone else. The state doesn't even bother to argue she pulled the trigger. Merely being there was enough.

Here come the excuses again. Strange how I knew that would be the case (violent crimes) w/o looking even one of them up.

Because non-violent crimes don't keep you locked up for decades. One of my university professors was imprisoned for building a bomb, except he was teaching class and was talking with the students at the time he was supposed to be doing this. Since I was in the class, I can personally vouch for the fact he was not where the state claimed he was. The aforementioned case of Geronimo Pratt, whe spent three decades in prison for a pair of murders he could not possibly have committed, and who was, finally released when suppressed evidence came to light. Leonard Peltier is a famous political prisoner, problably the most famous political prisoner we have . . . except maybe for Mumia Abu Jamal (who I personally believe is guilty).

Like all those people fleeing Darfur to go to Chad? The main cause of death in the Darfur "genocide" is starvation in Chad. If Cuba were so horrible that people were willing to do anything to get out, they'd go to Haiti and the Bahamas. Actually, some do go to the Bahamas, then they try and get here so they can get their free government handouts.

You are hopelessly naive on this point.

Given that I live in South Florida and you don't, I'd say you are hopelessly naive. I get to actually talk to Cubans and also read the papers and see what people say when they get here.

And most people calling for change in Cuba don't get jailed.

So as long as it is only some it is okay? Very nice.

Does it justify embargoing a whole people?

Actually, we didn't get to chose to have it that way. Our system was designed that way and nearly impossible to change.

I agree but it is still your choice. When people like Nadar, Perot, etc come along you mock them and people that vote for them. A new way is there if you want it.

In most states, it's very difficult or impossible for non major party candidates to get on the ballot. Why, because the two main parties wrote the rules. Since our system doesn't have run-off elections, any 3rd party candidate generally throws the election to the opposite end. We don't have proportional representation.

Anyway, I don't mock them. Maybe Perot, but he was a kook.

Ah, so Cuba would be democratic if it weren't for the big bad USA. The USA prefers the commies I suppose? That's quite the pretzel you are twisted into.

One doesn't have anything to do with the other. It was U.S. actions that drove Cuba in to the arms of the USSR. Cuba might very well have been democratic had the U.S. not decided to terrorize and threaten Cuba.

I would remind you of what I'd written earlier, about how the U.S. government basically overthrew nearly every government in Latin America. Cuba was one of the few who didn't end up with a bloody military dictatorship. It may be a dictatorship, but it is neither bloody nor military. If we can trade with regimes that even carried out a policy of genocide (Guatemala), we can carry out trade with governments that are far, far less oppressive. The reason we don't isn't because Cuba is a dictatorship, but because Cuba is "Socialist."

[Tuberski]

Cigars., that the people that run the embargo still get from Cuba via Canada.
ACK!

[chequita guevara]

There are a lot of counterfeit "Cuban" cigars.

[Kidlicious]

We could be getting a lot of medicine from Cuba, but people probably don't know how important that is.

[chequita guevara]

I tell people who can't afford surgery to go to Cuba. The trip is cheaper than the surgery.