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Penalizing the Democratic voters for the actions of the state party leaders. 
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891 -
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What it comes down to:
You should count Florida, but not Michigan. In Florida, the GOP controlled Assembly voted to hold the primary prior to the DNC rules. And even though Obama had more to lose by not campaigning there, he was still on the ballot. In Michigan, the Democrats chose to move the primary forward, and Obama and Edwards both didn't appear on the ballot. It would be absolutely ridiculous if the Michigan votes or delegates counted towards Clinton, and if she wins because of them, she is not the legitimate Democratic nominee.
However, the DNC rules need to mean something, so maybe, Florida's delegation should be cut in half, like the GOP did. Michigan still shouldn't be counted."Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - ElokComment
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The DNC rules were clear well in advance. Michigan and Florida didn't play by those rules. It is the state Dem orgs that disenfranchised their own voters.Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-ArmsComment
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But in Florida, it wasn't the State Democratic Party that violated the DNC rules. Because it was a primary, it was funded by the State, and thus the date was set by the State Legislature. Moreover, this is the first time in maybe forever when there has been a real national primary. Thus, Florida deserved to be counted, and I feel that it is likely that they will be counted."Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - ElokComment
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I don't think you can change the rules to favor a candidate. Why even have primaries in that case?Originally posted by Admiral
But in Florida, it wasn't the State Democratic Party that violated the DNC rules. Because it was a primary, it was funded by the State, and thus the date was set by the State Legislature. Moreover, this is the first time in maybe forever when there has been a real national primary. Thus, Florida deserved to be counted, and I feel that it is likely that they will be counted.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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Changing the rules should give us pause, which is why I think there is logic to halving the number of Florida delegates that are allowed into Denver.
However, we need to weigh the rules against democracy. The rules were formulated at a time when the primary was expected to be over on February 5th. The most likely result was going to be that Florida and Michigan delegates would be seated, because their votes weren't going to effect the outcome of the party. Now, it is clear that this is a very close race, and the FL/MI delegates could be decisive. At this point, since the primary has effectively become a national primary, it would be democratically wrong to refuse to seat the FL delegation (as above, Michigan's delegation is a whole 'nuther story). Besides, the original purpose of the DNC rules has already been achieved.
They wanted to limit the number of states before Super Tuesday, so the candidates would have a chance to interact with people in small numbers, in a way that is impossible in a national primary. FL/MI would have impeded that, and got in the way of the campaign narrative, so they were disbarred. As such, their results did not factor into the Obama surge going into Super Tuesday. Effecting the larger election was the reason the primaries were moved forward, and they were denied that effect. That should be penalty enough for the Florida delegation. Thus, in my mind, the spirit of the rules has been fulfilled, even if the letter may be broken.
And for the record, I both support and work(ed) for Obama."Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - ElokComment
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But it wasn't a level playing field in either state. How can you possibly feel that democracy would be served? Issues like stay-at-home voters and lack of exposure to the normal run of the campaigns, argue well for the POV the results in these states are tainted. The fact that the candidates agreed not to campaign in these states does NOT indicate a level playing field. Heck, if I was a Dem voter, I would not take time out of my day to go cast a meaningless vote.
I don't know the solution, but seating these delegations based on pre-Feb5 results is inherently wrong. IMHO.Last edited by -Jrabbit; February 17, 2008, 17:55.Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-ArmsComment
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True, but well over a million people did vote in the Florida primary. Turnout was around 10%, compared to a (I'm guessing) 15-20% average in other states that held primaries. Their votes should mean something, especially considering that Florida may be one of only two states whose voters won't have any say. I mean, really, they should hold a caucus (primaries are too expensive) to reallocate delegates, but given that Obama does much better in caucuses, the Clinton campaign will never agree to it."Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - ElokComment
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At some point, Howard Dean and the DNC are going to have to lay down the law and make something happen. And the DNC should fully fund whatever solution is agreed upon.Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-ArmsComment
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It has nothing to do with Clinton but this thread needs one.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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This really funny thing is that the majority of the people who voted to strip Michigan and Florida of delegates in the first place are Clinton supporters (including some the spokespeople whining about Clinton not getting the delegates). A true case of Calvinball...Stop Quoting BenComment
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Just rerun the election ffs.You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.Comment
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