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Sometimes I REALLY don't get the NRA

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  • Sometimes I REALLY don't get the NRA

    Mandating microstamping would not infringe on anyone’s gun ownership rights. What it would do is help police catch violent criminals.


    February 15, 2008

    Editorial

    A Crime-Fighting Opportunity


    In October, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed a smart new law that will help police apprehend violent criminals and deter the gun traffickers who supply them. The measure requires that all new semiautomatic pistols sold in the state starting in 2010 be equipped with technology known as microstamping, which will allow police to quickly match empty bullet casings to the weapon that fired them.

    Legislation that would extend that requirement nationwide has just been introduced in both houses of Congress. It deserves full support from lawmakers of both parties, and both sides of the gun control debate.

    The microstamping process uses lasers to make microscopic markings on a gun’s firing pin and other internal surfaces, identifying the weapon’s make, model and serial number. When the gun is fired, this information is stamped onto the bullet casing, providing an immediate lead for investigators to pursue when casings ejected from the weapon are found at a crime scene.

    Sponsored by Senator Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts and Representative Xavier Becerra of California, both Democrats, the legislation would not require weapons manufactured before 2010 to be brought back to a gun shop for retrofitting. The measure’s law enforcement value would grow over time, as older guns get replaced with new models equipped with microstamping.

    The National Rifle Association, nevertheless, rejected pleas from the law enforcement community and waged a fierce battle to try to defeat the California law. The powerful gun lobby can be expected to fight even harder on Capitol Hill.

    Mandating microstamping would not infringe on anyone’s gun ownership rights. What it would do is help police catch violent criminals and make a dent in the large number of unsolved murders. According to statistics compiled by the F.B.I., around 40 percent of all homicides committed each year go unsolved.

    Making it easier for police to trace guns used in crimes would also deter straw purchasers who supply gang members and other dangerous individuals unable to pass a background check. It makes good, practical sense to give police this valuable crime-fighting tool.
    WTF?!! How does this in any way infringe on gun rights?!
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

  • #2
    Only sometimes? This stance doesn't surprise me at all from them.

    Why are they against registering weapons or any of the other sensible measures that don't prevent gun ownership.

    Seriously, bunch of reactionary psychos.
    Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
    Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
    We've got both kinds

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    • #3
      WTF?! Stupid NRA
      You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

      Comment


      • #4
        Only sometimes?


        Yeah, only sometimes. I do think gun ownership should be legal, so I agree with them on that issue (which is a substantial one).
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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        • #5
          Why? Well obviously it will make it easier for the Gestapo analoge to find the freedm fighters!
          "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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          • #6
            [q=MikeH]Seriously, bunch of reactionary psychos with guns[/q]

            Corrected.
            You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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            • #7
              Not saying I have this view but it is not entirley irrational.

              One could argue against this on the grounds that almost ALL gun control is simply unconstitutional and an infringment on our freedoms.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sometimes I REALLY don't get the NRA

                Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                Mandating microstamping would not infringe on anyone’s gun ownership rights. What it would do is help police catch violent criminals.

                WTF?!! How does this in any way infringe on gun rights?!
                It they start a war against the government they don't want to be identified.
                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                • #9
                  their position is that guns should not be regulated

                  the position that any property that people have should not be regulated is a ship that has sailed... imnsho

                  JM
                  Jon Miller-
                  I AM.CANADIAN
                  GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                  • #10
                    The NRA is against anything that makes manufacturing or owning a gun more onerous, or, more importantly, more expensive. This sounds like expensive technology to me, they don't want that cost passed on to them.

                    Thats the only sane argument against that I can think of anyway.
                    The undeserving maintain power by promoting hysteria.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Sometimes I REALLY don't get the NRA

                      Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                      Mandating microstamping would not infringe on anyone’s gun ownership rights. What it would do is help police catch violent criminals.




                      WTF?!! How does this in any way infringe on gun rights?!
                      They are against any type of gun registry because that can lead to the confiscation of guns. Or do you think that there won't be the database, and that they'll want to go hunting for the actual weapon(nabbing the seller of the weapon = statewide database at the least)? Likewise, if your gun is stolen, and used in a crime, you'd become liable for it in the aforementioned database scenario.

                      Oh and criminals will probably in any event be able to disassemble the gun, smash the microstamper, and be able to use the gun without fear of it being traced back to him.
                      Last edited by Whoha; February 15, 2008, 13:01.

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                      • #12
                        Yep, nothing a little hammer and a chissel can't fix. Of course you shoud do that again AFTER the crime, as your chissel marks will be distinctive as well.
                        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Re: Sometimes I REALLY don't get the NRA

                          Originally posted by Whoha


                          They are against any type of gun registry because that can lead to the confiscation of guns.
                          That may be how some crazies feel, but I don't see how this could be a legitimate argument -- if your gun is used in a crime, it should be confiscated. It doesn't matter if it's ID'd through ballistics testing, a conventional serial number or a microimprint. Plus, IIRC the original article referred to legislating these stamps on semi-automatic weapons only, not hunting rifles.

                          It's honestly very sad. The NRA represents only the interests of the gun manufacturers and retailers. Most gun owners don't care to own assault weapons and don't plan to use their guns in a crime. I'd bet that most are OK with registering their handguns.
                          The undeserving maintain power by promoting hysteria.

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                          • #14
                            I wonder why Imran takes as fact the statements in a piece of argumentation. F.e., the article says the stamping is effective. Perhaps the NRA believes it is not effective.
                            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DanS
                              I wonder why Imran takes as fact the statements in a piece of argumentation. F.e., the article says the stamping is effective. Perhaps the NRA believes it is not effective.
                              The Numerous and Varied Problems with Micro-Stamping

                              Micro-stamping has repeatedly failed in tests. In 2006, a study by forensic experts and researchers at the University of California (Davis) concluded, “At the current time it is not recommended that a mandate for implementation of this technology in all semiautomatic handguns in the state of California be made.”2 Results of the study were consistent with earlier peer-reviewed tests published by the Association of Firearms and Toolmarks Examiners.3 Firearms examiner George Krivosta, of the Suffolk County, N.Y., crime lab, found that the “vast majority” of micro-stamped characters in the alphanumeric serial number couldn’t be read on “any of the expended cartridge cases generated and examined.”

                              Micro-stampings are easily removed. In the tests noted above, firing pins were removed in minutes, and serial numbers were obliterated in less than a minute, with household tools.

                              Most gun crimes cannot be solved by micro-stamping, or do not require micro-stamping to be solved. Most gun crimes do not involve shots being fired, thus there are no cartridge cases left at crime scenes for police to recover. Also, a large percentage of crimes involving guns, involve guns that don’t eject fired cartridge cases. Notwithstanding TV shows that portray crime-solving as impossible without high-technology, most crimes can be solved by traditional means. For example, of murders in which the victim-offender relationship is known, 77% involve family members, friends and other acquaintences. Only 23% involve strangers.4

                              Most criminals who use guns, get them through unregulated channels. According to the BATFE, 88% of of crime guns are acquired through unregulated channels, and the median time between a crime gun’s acquisition and its use in crime is 6.6 years.5 According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, most criminals get guns via theft or the black market.6

                              Micro-stamping may increase gun thefts, home invasions and other burglaries, and expand the black market in guns. Criminals will be further encouraged to get guns illegally, if they believe that guns bought legally will be linked to them in a computerized database.

                              Most guns do not automatically eject fired cartridge cases. Revolvers can fire five or more rounds without any fired cases being ejected. Pump-action, bolt-action, lever-action and other types of guns eject fired cases only if the user manually operates the gun’s unloading mechanism. If a fired case is not ejected at a crime scene, it cannot be recovered for examination.

                              Only a small percentage of guns will be micro-stamped. There are about 250 million guns in the U.S. already.7 New guns sold annually account for only 2% of that total, new semi-automatic pistols less than 0.5%,8 and guns to which AB1471 applies will account for a tiny fraction, at most.

                              Most violent crimes are committed without guns. According to the FBI, ¾ of violent crimes, including 1/3 of murders and 3/5 of robberies, are committed without guns.9

                              Micro-stamping wastes money, including that which is better spent on traditional crime-fighting and crime-solving efforts. It will require a costly computerized database to track micro-stamped handguns, costs that will be passed along to all consumers, including law enforcement agencies. It will require a redesign of the handgun manufacturing process, and could require payment of licensing fees to the sole-source micro-stamping patent holder.

                              Problems for law enforcement. Micro-stamping exposes police departments to lawsuits if officers fire “unsafe handguns” at suspects. Departments will have to spend money destroying all cases fired in training, to prevent cases from being reused at crime scenes. Criminals can obtain fired cases from practice ranges, and use them to “seed” crime scenes, to confuse investigators.


                              Established in 1975, the Institute for Legislative Action (ILA) is the "lobbying" arm of the National Rifle Association of America. ILA is responsible for preserving the right of all law-abiding individuals in the legislative, political, and legal arenas, to purchase, possess and use firearms for legitimate purposes as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
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                              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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