Arabs attempt to murder Danish cartoonists.

[Winston]

One can't help pondering that if we were to outlaw Islam in Western society, a whole lot of trouble and bloodshed might be avoided. One single transgression of that fine rule of Religious Freedom, and it would seem like everyone would be immensely better off.

But then of course that'd be racist, so I suppose it isn't really up for debate. We'll just have to keep smiling and take what's coming to us.

[BlackCat]

Elok, if you know about say mafia activities, then you can be silent, keep a low profile and maybe have a decent life You can also take the risk to witness about what you know.

The "keep silent" choice is a nice piss in your trousers and you feel the warmth for a while, but it's a short lived pleasure.

It's the same with extreme islam - if they start threating you because you do something they dont like, then you have to keep on doing it.

[Kidlicious]

This thread is getting annoying.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Kidicious
This thread is getting annoying.

Are you saying that we should be banned because you are offended by what we write ?

[Elok]

Originally posted by Winston
One can't help pondering that if we were to outlaw Islam in Western society, a whole lot of trouble and bloodshed might be avoided. One single transgression of that fine rule of Religious Freedom, and it would seem like everyone would be immensely better off.

But then of course that'd be racist, so I suppose it isn't really up for debate. We'll just have to keep smiling and take what's coming to us.

...between your post and BlackCat's, this was narrowly more silly, so I'll respond to it first: are you seriously suggesting that attempting to forcibly suppress a religious sect would mean less violence? Especially a religious sect with over a billion members and a tradition which explicitly licenses them to wage war on people who try to quash them?

BlackCat: If you know about mafia activities and report specific crimes to the police at the risk of your own life, you're a hero. If you instead spray-paint "Don Vito is a bignose greaseball" on walls around the city, and the mafia respond with a drive-by shooting that kills you and three bystanders, you're an idiot and a heel. This does not mean the mafia were right to paint the sidewalk with your innards, but you were stupid not to see it coming, stupid to risk such a reaction over something so trivial, and inconsiderate to provoke a gang of dangerous thugs you had no control over.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Elok
it's pretty stupid to make a cartoon just to show that you're not afraid to make a cartoon, make it with the full knowledge that it's going to offend people, and act surprised when they're offended.

The goal of the cartoon is not to offend people.
Those people are hardly offended.
Not to mention that these people are offending others at a daily base (gays are pigs, women are lesser beings, jews are dogs).

It also shows that these people are willing to kill people because they created a harmless cartoon.
What are they willing to do if someone does something that's even more offending?

And it's a statement. The statement is not: we like to offend people.
The statement is: this is a free country. You can freely live up to your faith, we can freely live up against your faith.
Don't consume the freedom you receive while you reject our freedom.

It also shows that some muslims apparantly have little faith in Allah. If people insult Allah or Muhammed, won't Allah himself punish them? Why does Allah need puny people to do that for him?

It's against our culture to spread believes and ideals by sword. Maybe it is in other cultures. Maybe our culture is wrong. But we believe in that culture. Not only atheists, also christians. And others are welcome to participate in our culture. But if you participate, and use the rights of this culture, don't fight others with the sword. If you despite our culture, don't try to be a part of it.

Either love it and embrace it, or hate it and avoid it.

[Robert]

This does not mean the mafia were right to paint the sidewalk with your innards, but you were stupid not to see it coming, stupid to risk such a reaction over something so trivial, and inconsiderate to provoke a gang of dangerous thugs you had no control over.

You apparantly are not aware that this msg is not directed towards the muslims, but towards those who believe that 2 totally different cultures can live together.
And towards those who think that Islam is like Christianity, and can be a part of our society.
It's a msg to those who hardly know anything about Islam, but just want to believe in a society where atheists, christians and muslims can live together, tolerating each other, and accepting free speech, freedom of religion and the seperation of church and state.

All of those are western inventions that could only be applied to a society that has it's roots in humanism and judeo-christianity.

[Elok]

Originally posted by CyberShy
The goal of the cartoon is not to offend people.
Those people are hardly offended.
Not to mention that these people are offending others at a daily base (gays are pigs, women are lesser beings, jews are dogs).

Oh, they're quite offended, as evidenced by the rocks, threats and riots. Do they have grounds for being so offended, or for reacting with violence? Absolutely not. Are they crazy? Certainly. But, did these cartoonists know they would react in that general way? It's undeniable. This whole thing started with people being unable to find an illustrator willing to work on a children's book about Mohammad. They knew from the start that what they were doing might provoke a violent reaction, so much so that most of the cartoonists chose to remain anonymous IIRC.

In other words: "Hey, look, these people overreact violently when I draw their prophet! See, I'll show you by drawing their prophet...OW! THEY'RE OVERREACTING VIOLENTLY! This is a gross injustice!" Morons. Their very conduct shows that they knew what would happen and did it anyway for some fool reason, endangering others in the process. And they weren't even saying something people didn't already know. That Van Gogh director was assassinated well before this. The only difference is that Van Gogh actually said something that needed to be said (something about the plight of Muslim women in the Netherlands, right? I never saw his film).

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Elok


...between your post and BlackCat's, this was narrowly more silly, so I'll respond to it first: are you seriously suggesting that attempting to forcibly suppress a religious sect would mean less violence? Especially a religious sect with over a billion members and a tradition which explicitly licenses them to wage war on people who try to quash them?

I hope that you can distinguish between the sillyness of Winstons postings and those that tries to make sane inputs to the debate

BlackCat: If you know about mafia activities and report specific crimes to the police at the risk of your own life, you're a hero. If you instead spray-paint "Don Vito is a bignose greaseball" on walls around the city, and the mafia respond with a drive-by shooting that kills you and three bystanders, you're an idiot and a heel. This does not mean the mafia were right to paint the sidewalk with your innards, but you were stupid not to see it coming, stupid to risk such a reaction over something so trivial, and inconsiderate to provoke a gang of dangerous thugs you had no control over.

Exactly what is the difference between a a cartoonist and a journalist that both present the danger of the "mafia" (for the more dense "extreme islamism") ?

I admit that the example isn't exactly precise since trere isn't a "moderate mafia", but will still say that you can neither fight the mafia nor extremist islamism if you keep silent.

[Robert]

Muhammed has been drawed many times in Islamitic tradition.
And acting offended isn't the same as being offended.
It's more a good reason to trow some rocks then being shocked at the deepest part of your heart.

But the heart of your message in the end is: "Don't do something that you legally are allowed to do, because they'll get violent on us"

Which means that a muslim daughter should not have sex with a non-muslim, because her family will get violent to protect their honor.

If they wanna be a part of our culture, then they should know how to receive. Receive words that you don't like.
We've made fun in our western civilization about everything and anything. Communism, capitalism, atheism and theism. Being able to accept that others mock you shows that you are willing to really debate with others. People who can't insults in a unagressivce way are not able to get into a debate on an equal base.

Tell me, what do you think is worse for muslims?
Drawing a cartoon of their prophet, or living against all laws of Allah?

[Elok]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Exactly what is the difference between a a cartoonist and a journalist that both present the danger of the "mafia" (for the more dense "extreme islamism") ?

I admit that the example isn't exactly precise since trere isn't a "moderate mafia", but will still say that you can neither fight the mafia nor extremist islamism if you keep silent.

It's also not precise since the mafia tend to target only the people who cross them in some way, as opposed to crazy rock-chucking Muslims who think one white guy against them is grounds for a Jihad Against Whiteys. Leaving that aside, I would consider it valid if the message were not self-referential, i.e. if the message were anything but "I bet they'll get all pissy if we do this." Like I told CS, they weren't saying anything new, and the message could in fact have been said more eloquently with words. Even barring that, you could handle the issue in cartoon form more creatively than just coming right out and kicking the tiger in the teeth that way.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Elok


Oh, they're quite offended, as evidenced by the rocks, threats and riots. Do they have grounds for being so offended, or for reacting with violence? Absolutely not. Are they crazy? Certainly. But, did these cartoonists know they would react in that general way? It's undeniable. This whole thing started with people being unable to find an illustrator willing to work on a children's book about Mohammad. They knew from the start that what they were doing might provoke a violent reaction, so much so that most of the cartoonists chose to remain anonymous IIRC.

In other words: "Hey, look, these people overreact violently when I draw their prophet! See, I'll show you by drawing their prophet...OW! THEY'RE OVERREACTING VIOLENTLY! This is a gross injustice!" Morons. Their very conduct shows that they knew what would happen and did it anyway for some fool reason, endangering others in the process. And they weren't even saying something people didn't already know. That Van Gogh director was assassinated well before this. The only difference is that Van Gogh actually said something that needed to be said (something about the plight of Muslim women in the Netherlands, right? I never saw his film).

Are you seriously saying that if someone are going to be violent if something specifice are said, then it will be better to stay silent ?

I really don't want to live in a society that you describes (well if I'm part of that establishment that dicatates what is right, I might).

[Elok]

Originally posted by CyberShy
But the heart of your message in the end is: "Don't do something that you legally are allowed to do, because they'll get violent on us"

No, the heart of my message is: "Don't provoke psychos for the sake of provoking them, and have a thought for the consequences of your actions." I don't consider Theo Van Gogh a fool; he was actually saying something worth the risk, at least to him. These people are ninnies because they started a ruckus gratuitously.

BlackCat: if there is no way to restrain them when you say it, or from saying "those people are dangerous" to authorities, a wise man would just STFU. Especially when (I cannot emphasize this enough) THEY ARE NOT SAYING ANYTHING WORTHWHILE. They're just doing what they've been double-dared not to do.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Elok


It's also not precise since the mafia tend to target only the people who cross them in some way, as opposed to crazy rock-chucking Muslims who think one white guy against them is grounds for a Jihad Against Whiteys. Leaving that aside, I would consider it valid if the message were not self-referential, i.e. if the message were anything but "I bet they'll get all pissy if we do this." Like I told CS, they weren't saying anything new, and the message could in fact have been said more eloquently with words. Even barring that, you could handle the issue in cartoon form more creatively than just coming right out and kicking the tiger in the teeth that way.

If you were a dane I'm prety sure that you woulds be a member of Radikale Venstre.

Their policy is that they "speaks teh thruth" without offending anyone. They were a total failure when they had to deal with hitler and they are now a total failure when they tries to handle muslims. They even managed to piss of their main muslim memeber so he broke out to create a new party.

[Winston]

Originally posted by Elok
are you seriously suggesting that attempting to forcibly suppress a religious sect would mean less violence? Especially a religious sect with over a billion members and a tradition which explicitly licenses them to wage war on people who try to quash them?

I'm not really suggesting anything, not seriously anyhow. I thought you'd come to know me.

I'm just sometimes longing for the days when there weren't any sociopathic Muslims around to try to burn down our cities, as has happened a couple of hundred times over the past week.

Forcibly suppress.. good heavens, no. Pointing them in the direction of Mecca and giving them a gentle and helpful push, along with a heartfelt thanks for all they've done to broaden our horizon.. nah, still way too racist. You know, I can't really blame them for being offended by people like me. It's like we're.. critical of their religion and customs, their general behaviour and attitude or something. Wicked, I know, but there we are..