Science buff- Like Barack Obama? Better not like manned spaceflight then

[Heraclitus]

The entire universe isn't such a system.

[ricketyclik]

No, but our world is, and for me at least for all intents and purposes that is my universe.

[Heraclitus]

We were talking about long term here Rick.

[ricketyclik]

How long? We should be right in terms of entropy for something in the order of billions of years, which from my angle is infinite.

[Heraclitus]

You're not immortal, a planet wide consciousness on the other hand is.

[Geronimo]

It's a bit sad that images sent by the Messenger space probe of about half the side of the planet Mercury that had never before been imaged were made available Tuesday and failed not only to get front page coverage on any news site it even failed to get top billing on their science subsections, getting listed below announcements of future river reclamation projects or the engineering of the blackest substance ever made from carbon.

I waited for 3 days for the story of the Messenger flyby to attract some media notice but appears that's not going to occur.

Given that the media has written off interest in space exploration I'm not surprised that Obama appears to be making the same calculation.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


Well, I think he belives that the creation of a new universe might be possible, thus making sure entropy dosen't get the final word. He may even be hinting that we live in such a created universe. I he dosen't mean that, I'm not quite sure what he's about...

good guess , the "last question" could be one scenario...

my point is that since "we are" we are the proof that entropy cannot be the final end all, perhaps it has such appearance to our 21st century science, but there likely is some sort of mechanism/other means which accounts for the big bang/ ie creation which is the exact opposite of entropy, and entropic universe can only "be" subsequent to such an event...

otherwise if entropic end is inevitable, we would not be (ie, such an end would be all there is and there would be no existence ever)

But there must be some sort of escape, or "rebirth"/whatever which accounts for existence of this universe, and whatever that is, it will happen again as the basic structure of the universe (or in whatever medium it exists itself) must allow for those conditions to exist and eventually happen etc... unless creation/big bang was a "one off", unrepeatable event but in that case causality is broken.

[Blake]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave


good guess , the "last question" could be one scenario...

my point is that since "we are" we are the proof that entropy cannot be the final end all, perhaps it has such appearance to our 21st century science, but there likely is some sort of mechanism/other means which accounts for the big bang/ ie creation which is the exact opposite of entropy, and entropic universe can only "be" subsequent to such an event...

otherwise if entropic end is inevitable, we would not be (ie, such an end would be all there is and there would be no existence ever)

But there must be some sort of escape, or "rebirth"/whatever which accounts for existence of this universe, and whatever that is, it will happen again as the basic structure of the universe (or in whatever medium it exists itself) must allow for those conditions to exist and eventually happen etc... unless creation/big bang was a "one off", unrepeatable event but in that case causality is broken.

Even if the Universe is reborn, that doesn't stop entropy getting EVERYTHING which lives in the old universe first .

[Heraclitus]

For an enlightened person, you sure can miss the obvious. Who said we have no control over the characteristics of the new universe?

[Blake]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
For an enlightened person, you sure can miss the obvious. Who said we have no control over the characteristics of the new universe?

You mean like making it have no entropy?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

no, being able to transfer from one into the other... based on principle mind>matter...

but I agree this is too far out

what I would say though is that entropy is certainly not the whole story, us being here... now whether mind can actually escape it is another question altogether, and pure conjecture on my part to say "why not"... getting from gas to intelligence in 4bn years is remarkable enough that intelligence beating entropy in next 40bn does not sound too far fetched to me

[The Mad Monk]

Well, if this universe is the product of another universe's end, where's the knowledge transfer from the end of that one that would correlate to the transfer you're expecting at the end of this one?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

for knowledge transfer from the end of the last one? see earlier posts in this thread (I think it was this one)... The answer to Fermi paradox - is that we expect the intelligence otherwise existing in the universe to find us amusing enough to prove itself to us. The point being "if there is some other evolved intelligence in the past 10+ bn yers that this universe exists we should see it already"... but do the ants in the middle of the forest know that people exist? And for the most part we do not really find it that appealing to train the ants in the forest to become human, and there is merely few tens of million years evolutionary difference between us...

the same with any "knowledge transfer" if it ever occurred, there is no reason for you or me to know about it, as it would be in way different shape/form etc for us to be able to recognize it even if it had some form of direct/indirect presence, and who knows what might its motives be, but there we will end up in a religious type subject...

in principle that is too far out to even speculate, but it is akin to asking "what sort of mechanism is that you get knowledge gathering intelligence from a gas cloud in 4bn years?" ... if you asked learned humans 1000 years ago, they would be asking "gas cloud" what is that nonsense? 4bn years? We have a better idea, let's burn you instead!, and 10000 years ago noone knew what was gas, let alone anything else etc...

my main point was that an entropic end is not a necessity, "something" manages to come across that is for sure, now whether intelligence can transfer is another matter, but I do not see entropic end as a necessity, merely a possible ending... even unlikely, as so far mind>matter and matter definitely comes across whatever boundary is there... there is a lot of time in front of us/some sort of intelligence to see if there is a final way out of the bounds of this universe or not.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Blake


You mean like making it have no entropy?

No. Use your imagination a bit and think of all the possibilities before responding.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
for knowledge transfer from the end of the last one? see earlier posts in this thread (I think it was this one)... The answer to Fermi paradox - is that we expect the intelligence otherwise existing in the universe to find us amusing enough to prove itself to us. The point being "if there is some other evolved intelligence in the past 10+ bn yers that this universe exists we should see it already"... but do the ants in the middle of the forest know that people exist? And for the most part we do not really find it that appealing to train the ants in the forest to become human, and there is merely few tens of million years evolutionary difference between us...

the same with any "knowledge transfer" if it ever occurred, there is no reason for you or me to know about it, as it would be in way different shape/form etc for us to be able to recognize it even if it had some form of direct/indirect presence, and who knows what might its motives be, but there we will end up in a religious type subject...

in principle that is too far out to even speculate, but it is akin to asking "what sort of mechanism is that you get knowledge gathering intelligence from a gas cloud in 4bn years?" ... if you asked learned humans 1000 years ago, they would be asking "gas cloud" what is that nonsense? 4bn years? We have a better idea, let's burn you instead!, and 10000 years ago noone knew what was gas, let alone anything else etc...

my main point was that an entropic end is not a necessity, "something" manages to come across that is for sure, now whether intelligence can transfer is another matter, but I do not see entropic end as a necessity, merely a possible ending... even unlikely, as so far mind>matter and matter definitely comes across whatever boundary is there... there is a lot of time in front of us/some sort of intelligence to see if there is a final way out of the bounds of this universe or not.

A very good post onefoot.