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  • Sometimes Germany is bewildering

    Sometimes Germany is bewildering to me -- an alien land.

    Like the fact that clergy are fighting against shops being open on Sunday. I've known 24/7/365 shopping for my whole life such that I wonder whether we ever had different laws. But then I go to Germany and the stores are never open. It's as if they take all the convenient times to shop and purposely close the store at those times.

    Why would the government even be involved in this question? I've never heard a single peep from clergy state-side about this.



    Berlin retail law ignites church fury

    By Bertrand Benoit in Berlin

    Published: December 22 2007 02:00 | Last updated: December 22 2007 02:00

    Berliners will converge on the city's malls tomorrow for one last bout of Christmas shopping. But, if the country's clergymen have their way, German shoppers will, in future, have nowhere to go on the Sabbath but the Christmas markets.

    In the year's most unlikely labour dispute, Christian clerics have launched an all-out attack on a left-wing city government they think is transgressing a fundamental workers' right. And they have struck a chord in a country growing uncomfortable about all aspects of economic liberalisation.

    The Catholic Archbishopric and the Evangelical Church of Berlin have filed a complaint with the constitutional court seeking to repeal an amendment to the city's shop-opening law. Bishop Wolfgang Huber, chairman of the Evangelical church council, has called the law "a -disgrace".

    The amendment, pushed through last month by the city-state's coalition of Social Democrats and neo-communists, allows stores to open every Sunday in December.

    For the churches, it is a breach of the Sonntagsruhe, the right enshrined in the constitution to rest on Sunday, and of a 1,700 year-old custom established by Emperor Constantine in 321.

    "We are not radicals. But the extension to the advent period was the last straw," says Ulrich Seeleman at the Evangelical church council.

    In the factional world of Berlin politics, the reform was one of this year's rare bills endorsed in the state parliament by all parties. Since last year's reform of Germany's federal system transferred the right to set retail opening hours to the states, no regional government has pushed liberalisation as far as Berlin.

    Less than a decade ago German stores opened until 6pm on weekdays and 1pm on Saturdays. In the capital they can now trade around the clock on weekdays and on 10 Sundays a year.

    The churches have been careful not to pitch their complaint in religious terms. Though Sunday work is "necessary" in certain professions, they say, shoppers are free to shop any other day of the week.

    "A fundamental right is being scrapped without debate," says Stephan Förner, the archbishop of Berlin's spokesman. "If a majority is in favour, fine. But this discussion belongs in parliament."

    Conservative politicians have backed the complaint - conservative-led states, such as Hamburg, the Saarland, and Catholic Bavaria, have some of the nation's strictest shopping laws - as have the trade unions. The Verdi services union, which failed to outlaw Sunday opening, is supporting the churches with its own legal expertise.

    "We do not see this as a religious but a labour dispute," says Peter Weith, head of Verdi's retail section. "We support the churches wholeheartedly because they, unlike us, are entitled to go straight to the constitutional court with this issue."

    HDE, the German retail federation, says Sunday opening in December is crucial if consumption is to recover.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

  • #2
    I've known 24/7/365 shopping for my whole life such that I wonder whether we ever had different laws.


    /me wonders if Dan ever lived in the south or ever heard of the term "blue law"
    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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    • #3
      I've only known blue laws as related to alcohol sales.
      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

      Comment


      • #4
        My best friend, currently living in Austria, sent me some artisan chocolate. It contains bacon.

        WHY DOES MY CHOCOLATE HAVE PORK IN IT??
        Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
        -Richard Dawkins

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        • #5
          They have also been used to regulate when stores can open on Sunday.
          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starchild
            My best friend, currently living in Austria, sent me some artisan chocolate. It contains bacon.

            WHY DOES MY CHOCOLATE HAVE PORK IN IT??
            Chocolate covered bacon? :vomit:
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

            Comment


            • #7
              A chocolate bar containing coffee, plums, spices and 2% bacon.
              Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
              -Richard Dawkins

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DinoDoc
                They have also been used to regulate when stores can open on Sunday.
                OK, then educate me. When did they stop normal stores from opening on Sunday?
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Starchild
                  A chocolate bar containing coffee, plums, spices and 2% bacon.
                  :vomit:

                  I think your friend is trying to poison you.
                  I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                  For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is not an issue just in Germany and Austria. Austria seems especially bad: not only nothing there works on Sundays, most things open on Saturdays are open till noon or something like that

                    Here in Croatia a similar law banning most big shopping centers from working on Sundays was passed two years ago. I think I even made a thread about it. It was later struck down as unconstitutional, but the church keeps trying to pass another one, this time "fixed".

                    They have a silent ally in the people who work in those centers. They have about the smallest wages in the country, but most of them don't dare to try to unionize.

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                    • #11
                      It is interesting, as normally it is more the unions who are opposed against working on sundays, giving the argument that workers need one common day in the week where they can meet friends and the like.
                      It is AFAIK also the unions who were against laxer laws concerning the shop opening times during the weeks, giving the argument that it would lead to shops abusing their clerks by forcing them to work lots of unpaid overtime during the week.

                      But give them time.
                      I can still remember the times (till the mid 90s) when you could only go shopping till 18:30 during the week and till 14:00 on saturdays and would never be able to go shopping on sundays.

                      Nowadays we have shopping till 20:00 during the week and (in many shops) on saturdays and sometimes even shopping on sundays (and you are able to buy lots of things even during the night and on sundays in gas station shops which are exempted from the normal shop opening laws).

                      I assume the next relaxation of these laws will come soon, so that finally, even if we will never be able to shop 24/7/365, at least will be able to shop from 8-23 and also on most sundays during the year (with the exception of christian holidays)
                      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                      • #12
                        Found my thread! Has an interesting poll too:

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DinoDoc
                          I've known 24/7/365 shopping for my whole life such that I wonder whether we ever had different laws.


                          * DinoDoc wonders if Dan ever lived in the south or ever heard of the term "blue law"
                          South? we used to have them up North as well. Even in NYC, though NYC wasnt as strict as Boston or Philly.
                          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DanS


                            OK, then educate me. When did they stop normal stores from opening on Sunday?

                            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starchild
                              My best friend, currently living in Austria, sent me some artisan chocolate. It contains bacon.

                              WHY DOES MY CHOCOLATE HAVE PORK IN IT??
                              Zotter chocolate?
                              "The world is too small in Vorarlberg". Austrian ex-vice-chancellor Hubert Gorbach in a letter to Alistar [sic] Darling, looking for a job...
                              "Let me break this down for you, fresh from algebra II. A 95% chance to win 5 times means a (95*5) chance to win = 475% chance to win." Wiglaf, Court jester or hayseed, you judge.

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